Why I think Universal Basic Income UBI is a great idea

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Couldn't inflation be controlled with some sort of 'money-sink'?

As long as we didn't repeat the blunders of the last industrial revolution, there wouldn't even be an inflation. The production from automation is relatively unpaid yet still generates revenue (more than we've seen before) and GDP. The money will be there without the need for quantitative easing.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Politics is a waste of time.

I don't know about UBI, but I can imagine that in the not too distant future, UBI will probably be damn near a necessity what with job loss due to robots and AI and automation.

Having said that, I seriously doubt this will lead to the development of much in the way of high culture. Not that it really matters.

originally posted by: eXia7

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: rickymouse
Give everyone the same basic income, then give the guys who put their lives at risk or who work their tail off some extra money. There is no reason that a chemist should get more than a road construction worker who pulls blacktop or concrete all day long. Someone putting roofs on houses should make more than people sitting in an office.

I couldn't disagree more..

I sit in an office and earn every dollar I get paid.
I guarantee I could learn how to put a roof on a house quicker than a roofer could learn to do the things I do..

Why should a roofer get paid more?

It takes all types of brains, skills, abilities to make the world go around..

A roofer does make more money than you if he is self employed.

If people really want to increase their wealth, they must think outside of the box.. work for yourself.. don't depend on the government to hand feed you.

Cool..didnt know you knew how much I make to the point that you are qualified to say if a self employed roofer does or doesnt make more..

a reply to: dfnj2015

Well, we can use automation as an opportunity. Let all the complicated technical stuff be done by the robots, and let the rest of the people revert back to an agricultural/barter economy. We can have a hybrid of the new technology and the ancient trade systems.

It's all really a non issue. As more and more people loss employment due to automation the human race will simply contract to meet the new reality. Starvation, disease, declining birth rates will cull the human race until a new equalibriam is reached. And than man and micheam will live in harmony and culture will prosper.

A UBI will only slow this progress down and give a false hope to those clinging on to a futile life.

originally posted by: loam
a reply to: dfnj2015

Let's play the "What would I do game?"

I'm a business guy and suddenly UBI becomes law. Instantly, I'm confronted with much higher taxes. If I plan to stay and play, I simply pass on the expense to the consumer. Prices rise and suddenly UBI is meaningless. The only way to stop that is to pass a law limiting my earnings. Once you do that, I'll stop playing here and take my money where I don't have that problem. So you'll have to pass another law that prevents me from leaving. Once you've done that, it's full Soviet after that.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Just simple laws of action/reaction.... 'nough said.

You're a confused business guy then. And eventually when UBI does become a reality, you're not even going to understand how it happened. I don't know how you can be in business and not see the powerful interests behind UBI and their plans for it.

The first thing WE, the people need to do is reboot government and make it genuinely represent the people, or nothing will work as we will all be cogs in the corporate machines.

Personally I don't believe the UBI would actually be a real benefit to Americans nor the American economy. If private automation causes so many to be jobless, then I could see resurrecting some aspects of FDR's new deal to get Americans working again. Especially the CCC and CWA programs were quite effective and beneficial atthe time. Americans were able to retain their pride in their worth / work and were not looked down as lazy entitled jerks with their hands out for a free ride in life.

By 1933 millions of Americans were out of work Bread lines were a common sight in most cities. Hundreds of thousands roamed the country in search of food, work and shelter. "Brother, can you spare a dime?" went the refrain of a popular song.

Ah early step for the unemployed came in the form of the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC), a program enacted by Congress to bring relief to young men between 18 and 25 years of age. The CCC was run in a semi-military style and enrolled jobless young men in work camps across the country for about $30 per month. About 2 million young men took part in this program during the 193Os. During their time in the CCC, they participated in a variety of conservation projects such as "planting trees to combat soil erosion and maintain national forests; eliminating stream pollution; creating fish, game and bird sanctuaries; and conserving coal, petroleum, shale, gas, sodium and helium deposits."3

The Civil Works Administration was a work relief program that gave jobs to many unemployed people. Although this program was criticized as "make work," the jobs funded ranged from ditch digging to highway repairs to teaching. It was Created in November 1933,and was abandoned only a few months later in the spring of 1934. Roosevelt and his key officials, however, continued to favor unemployment programs based on work relief rather than welfare.

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History has shown a more beneficial way to offset a future jobless scenario that will build our country up. UBI is not the answer...encouraging our people to literally build America will benefit not only the jobless but all Americans.

a reply to: CynConcepts

Slave labour on a "make work" basis is not the answer, this only ran for 6 months, or so.

Until the government is prepared to legislate to fairly divide up work available to available workers, with a proper living wage, then nothing work related is gona work.

Cos the corporations are certainly not gona do it.

Well, I'm pretty much a feckless nobody when it comes to economics, but I have to say that I find the arguments against UBI on page one of the thread are a bit knee-jerk, and don't really wrap themselves around the question, the proposition, the potential means of achieving the proposition, the interesting challenges raised by the puzzle of economics which none of us can really say we understand comprehensively.

When it comes to maximising public productivity, then it would seem a guarantee of median level volunteer engagements which benefit the community in some way, could be traded for a certain level of UBI. If we were to introduce a variety of 'bands/ tiers' of UBI access, so that we grade a citizen's contribution to government-led programs of work & portion them an appropriate measure of compensation fitting for the skill level, and the hours the citizen is prepared to work. If a citizen doesn't want to compete for a role in the private sector - for example, someone who has worked for thirty years as a printer, only to find the business shuts down & here he is, 55 years old, no idea how to get back on the horse, retrain, compete for roles which far younger & more qualified people are also competing for, plus he's been having problems with arthritis slowing him down & causing pain. Not disabled, but tired, and sore, and disenchanted with the position he now finds himself in. Instead of fighting for another scrap from the private sector, he takes a partial retirement, by supplementing his automatic UBI with some community work which is sufficiently challenging, rewarding & flexible to take account of his health, but also makes the most of his skill at supervising on the shop floor - I don't see how we could fundamentally & innately criticise a system which meets the changing needs & capabilities, and general fitness of the citizen, making skilful use of competent workstream managers, matching up such people with relevant opportunities in their district. I believe that a banded/tier-selective UBI scheme could support the people's changing needs, learned capabilities, capacity for contribution, drive for success & general life stage, permitting for the increase of skilled workers through apprenticeships wherever growth is experienced – but also allowing for a dignified & phased slow-down into retirement, preventing the tragedy of elderly persons undergoing a crash-landing descent into abject poverty & ill health towards the end of life.

The private sector is where everyone starts out after education. We all want to be there, because we can have interesting careers & we can earn good quality cash which we can use to deck out our lifestyle in the manner to which we desire to become accustomed. Later on, Dad takes flexible hours to help support Mum who is raising Baby, with Mum topping up her own UBI by working at a local charity organisation three afternoons a week. When Baby goes to school, Mum decides to take up her career again, or she may wish to work on a number of projects which help to top up her UBI, but also help the local community in tangible ways, and she can enjoy the social rewards of this sort of activity. Meanwhile, Dad gets back into regular hours, while Grandad retires from full-time employment in his engineering role & takes on a few social enterprise UBI top-ups available which suit his capabilities in project management - so he can keep himself busy, meet people in the community, and feel that he is still making a tangible difference in the world. Ultimately, he plans to retire completely in around ten years from now, when he hits 75. His engineering career came late in life when he took on a 'skill-up' initiative & retrained, after several years in an unfulfilling & dull role which offered safety but no challenges. After twenty years of reasonable success & progression, he decides it would be for the best that at least for a few years, he aims to be Grandma's main carer, as she has struggled with complex chronic pain after a botched spinal operation five years ago. She can't partake in either employment or UBI top-up activities, but she receives a disablement credit which is applied to top up her UBI, which is sufficient to help cover the cost of a mobility vehicle plus servicing, so she can get out & about a few times a week, maintaining some of her independence & ensuring she can spend some of her income on produce & services from the local community.

I don't think we've fully started the conversation about UBI, let alone come up with a final word on the matter, as some people in the thread seem to think.. I find it rather straightforward to believe that perhaps we haven't quite found the right balance yet, anywhere in the world. We're still learning, it seems, and we can never find ourselves one morning awakened in some Utopia where everything's perfect - instead we should aim for 'Protopia'. A society in which each action taken has been taken because of the open & deliberate discussion & debate between academics, government planners, city administration officials, taxation officials, social charities, independent entrepreneurs & business leaders, representatives from banking & so on. A larger-scale 'round table' association needs to be employed, along with the promotion of the advantages of working within such an association. Starting the conversation needs to be 'launched' officially, with a driving force of conviction, government leading from the front, showing what can be achieved, investing regional entrepreneurs in helping to solidify the working group system in which UBI would be contemplated.

In the UK, we have the rather ghastly 'Universal Credit' effort which is nothing but a snide way to stab the community in the back, trimming as much money as possible from each individual claimant. Poverty by dispensation is tyranny – there needs to be a fruitful & positive culture established around the gradual redevelopment of the national culture. For us, Brexit is going to make or break the situation. It may be that some guiding lights come into the halls of the government over the coming months, and that by their wisdom we are reshaped into a just, fair, equable society, with the 'larger round table' phased in & establishing protocol, as an archetypal image to lead us onwards into New Britain.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
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