Why I think Universal Basic Income UBI is a great idea

I've been an engineer for 32 years. There are no "right" decisions. There are only different sets of trade-offs. Every engineering decision that goes into a product produces a different set of pluses and minuses as a result.

The same thing is true with politics. This is what I believe our founding fathers meant by "a more perfect Union". Every law passed helps some people but hurts others. No law ever passed is perfect. There are laws that enslave men and there are laws that set men free. No law is without a set of trade-offs and different set of unintended consequences. Not having a law can also have its own set of trade-offs and unintended consequences.

With this in mind I think having a UBI is a good idea. UBI would create more commerce and more culture. I think ultimately, our goal as a people should be to develop and create a more interesting culture. Culture is what makes life worth living. For example, the Olympics serve absolutely no real purpose for humanity. But people spend huge amounts of money and time attending the Olympics because they are interesting and fun. I think having a UBI would help create more interesting culture. People would have enough money to train for the Olympics.

I don't think our goal as a people should be to win the game of monopoly by forcing everyone else into poverty. I think the goal of our people should be more like the game "Settlers of Catan". In the game Settlers of Catan the way the game is won is by which team has the built up the most resources. Resources are built through trade with other teams.

Monopoly is a a zero-sum game is when one "player" gains something at the expense of another "player" losing something. You win the game at the expense of the other players. As such, a non-zero-sum game, like Settlers of Catan, is when gains and losses can be made by all "players" without it affecting anyone else.

Here's a video about poverty and why culture should be our primary goal. If you watch the video he makes a very good argument against rugged individualism and monopoly control. It's only 20 minutes long but I bet most of you are too pig headed to give it a go. But hopefully, some of you are open minded:

Hans Rosling New Insights on poverty

I don't have a problem with having a UBI if it means a better standard of living for a larger number of people. Meaning in one's life can come from culture. It doesn't have to solely come from self-reliance or being the CEO of fortune 500 corporation. I don't see why we can't have the best of both worlds coexisting. Why can't we have UBI and still have CEOs making more money than they will ever spend in 200 lifetimes.

Having UBI would give us a more interesting culture. I think this key benefit would outweigh any negative trade-offs. CEOs can still laud ostentatious wealth over everyone else just like before UBI. If you want to be a CEO and a self-made man you still have to work just as hard for it. People with power and privilege will have the same power and privilege with UBI. But not everyone has to become an international bankster to have enough disposable income to pursue the arts. More people would have the resources to train to participate in the Olympics!

If people have UBI all it will mean is CEOs and shareholders will rake in more money. And the money people do have will be worth more because it will buy more. The value of money does not have to be a zero-sum game. As such, this can be a "win-win" situation, where all "players" can gain something without anyone losing something. I think having a UBI would be a win-win for all the players including the CEOs and shareholders.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Past thread (Jan 2017) with input from members, to give you a feel for the responses you will receive.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: carewemust

I'm really not interested in arguing about labels but talking about the benefits of UBI in terms of culture.

you cannot have UBI without either a universal basic tax with a net value of zero, our a universal basic debt with a net value of zero minus interest.

best case, you pay as much in taxes as you receive.

it simply doesn't work.

the second best case ha the money is printed, and each dollar is worth less then the one before, with an inevitable collapse.

a reply to: dfnj2015

So where does the income come from? Before you go on to talk about how great it is for everyone, you need to tell us where it comes from, as that's going to have an effect too.

By the way: you might want to edit this line....it's a bit harsh, and it may cause problems:

It's only 20 minutes long but I bet most of you are too pig headed to give it a go

This is not the Mud Pit

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: carewemust

I'm really not interested in arguing about labels but talking about the benefits of UBI in terms of culture.

Very well. I'm sure you'll find ATS members to engage in that dialogue with you. Good luck.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Where does this Universal Basic Income come from?

a reply to: dfnj2015

I would rather see us implement 100% employment if this has to be a thing. If you want the basic income you do a 'public' job that earns the money for you. Basically you are guaranteed employment and people do something that benefits society if they can't compete in the private sector.

I see no reason to give people something for nothing.

The income could perhaps come from a lottery, created specifically for this. Im just tossing ideas out. Thinking of the elderly, and those who suddenly find themselves in dire straights.

a reply to: dfnj2015

How do you prevent inflation?

a reply to: dfnj2015

How much UBI is enough? (hint: no amount will ever be enough - ref: the current minimum wage issue). Just for the sake of argument, let's say we set UBI AT $5000/MONTH. THAT'S $60K/YR for each adult us citizen. There are about 250 million of us, so that's 14,400,000,000,000 per year. Where does that money com from?

I can't wait till we have this UBI your talking about. The moment it voted into law im going to quite my job as a janitor at the local school and start training for the Olympics.

The kids can clean their own class rooms.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Let's play the "What would I do game?"

I'm a business guy and suddenly UBI becomes law. Instantly, I'm confronted with much higher taxes. If I plan to stay and play, I simply pass on the expense to the consumer. Prices rise and suddenly UBI is meaningless. The only way to stop that is to pass a law limiting my earnings. Once you do that, I'll stop playing here and take my money where I don't have that problem. So you'll have to pass another law that prevents me from leaving. Once you've done that, it's full Soviet after that.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Just simple laws of action/reaction.... 'nough said.

a reply to: dbarnhart

Defense budget?

Kidding on that one, the oligarchs would never let that happen.

I think the premise is, indeed, an interesting premise....As for the UBI, I don't think it should be equivalent to $60k/yr. That's a lot of money in some counties/states. The UBI would certainly have to be adjusted and based on median state income...or county or city depending. The diversity in incomes throughout the USA is a big deal in terms of buying power and real income.

I honestly think most people want to work. Maybe they don't want to pull 60-100 hour weeks, but they'd like to do +/-40 hour weeks and be rewarded with a living wage. There are some that don't want to work...there's always going to be them. And there will always be those people that try to abuse the system and have 5 or 10 kids to increase their monthly... So the real trick is, how to fight the fraud? Solve that problem and I'm all for the UBI.

Where does all the current money come from, that's right it's just printed and backed by nothing. The real national debt is over 20 Trillion, that doesn't stop our government from creating more money out of thin air.

How are people suppose to make it once Ai, robots, kiosk machines and self driving vehicles take away millions of jobs in the US.

We have unless money for our military, black projects, NSA/CIA, foreign aid, but when it comes taking care of our own people, sorry we don't have the money for it.

Hell , I do too
We can all sit back and do nothing...
But , where does the money come from ?
Since governments do not generate revenue except via taxes and tariffs .

I know I am going to offend but I find BUI to be slavery in a different name. It is welfare and you will only get enough to survive. All you will be allowed to do is sit in your house and twiddle your fingers. People need accomplishments in their lives. This will not give them the resources need to pursue those accomplishments. There will not be jobs that they can acquire more skills and abilities. It sounds great on paper until you look at the emotional costs that don't get recognized. It will just make the rich richer and the poor poorer. It does not solve the inequality issue.

from the point of view of a city dwelling leech, why not?

free money for all!

Just print more, the cost of printing a dollar is way less than I can buy with a dollar today.

of course, the penny is a different question. as is all metal currency from the point of view of net worth of content.
junk silver dimes from the 40s can't be bought for less than a dollar these days.

Just keep printing, giving free money away. I remember the footage of starving people buying a loaf of bread with a wheelbarrow full of cash.

the existing system makes is desperate enough for our own means, you intend to make us all suffer for the benefit of a few.
probably best as a Petri dish experiment, when failure means tossing the while idea in the compost, instead of dooming out species to extinction on this rock.

Look OP, those are some really valid points and I believe you truly believe them.

But I believe that if a UBI were implemented costs would only rise and soon the base UBI wouldn't be enough. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time a government spend projection undercut the reality for whatever reason.

In light of that, how do you propose we deal with that? I prefer to have my ducks in a row and if we could address the possibility of a rapidly-increasing cost of living outcome I'd feel better about the idea.

Would you tie the UBI to COL? Maybe tie it to a multi-variable index?

I'm genuinely interested in how you would deal with that possibility.

Piss off .
Not about to pay for yet another damn useless social program .
Nothing in this world is free and damn tired of being the one stuck with the bill for all the useless social programs to support all the useless eaters .