Is a new and better E.U. a possibility?

a reply to: nwtrucker

This much resources and lifes burned to destroy that possibility says that there is not at least an easy and obvious possibility for great E.U. People are in some sort of deep sleep already to recognize the nature of the situation, the harm is done in so many ways that to recover from all that would take so much effort and sacrifice that sadly perhaps even majority would just rather have another war than face the music. It is funny how Europeans talk about how dumb Americans are for not knowing European countries etc but they are as if not gone ahead on that critic already them selfs, for example how many Europeans would even know what is their E.U presidents names.

These guys in the top of the game are not real leaders, they just kill all the leader potentials and keep the status them self, they are criminal master minds and they are walking humanity in the leash, figuratively it is like one dude has machine gun over vast amount of ppl and curses them in their faces, beats them to death one by one and rapes their woman and children in their faces but ppl are acting like nothing is happening, just look other and chant EU is great EU is greatttt, ye bit of an rant but it is too sad to not rant about it bit at least..

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: nwtrucker

Stop.
There .
Your argument is mute. Go back and look at the Debt clock for Italy , Greece , France , Spain and compare those against other countries. See the trend ?
Dont issue a "blanket statement " to refute actual facts and numbers.
Doesnt work that way with me...

Yet again, I don't get your point whatsoever. The economics of the countries you named seem the result of the internal politics of each nation. no different than the signal example of the U.S.. Stupidity doesn't disappear in any form of gov't. It's a constant and I fail to see connecting that issue with a revised system.

A balanced budget amendment or a similar equivalent seems a reasonable solution.

You say my argument is mute? As I see yours.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: nwtrucker
With what you've just laid out the UK would probably still be in the EU. Its what the actual public desire. But Labtech hit yhr nail on the head, Junkers is an empire builder, he wants to push and push against Moscowd domain into places where it is non of the EUs business to be in. merkels plan to make all the countries take in the seeds of Islam is also madness. I voted to stay in the EU ss I believe it is good for business but that is exactly what it shoul have remained an economic union, but Junkers wants it to become a fully fledged political union and for many in Britain that wad a step too far.

Then there's a possible answer. Make the new union an economic one. To secure the future internal and external peace, a military union, as well. Yes, there's NATO, but it seems that group has gone sour, as well. Few keep their agreements on military spending and renege on commitments.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I wanted to stay in the EU, but they did get a bit too complacent about Britain and Schengen. Schengen destroyed Britain's membership.

I hope that the globalists find a way to get around this on a stealth basis. Britain is becoming a very ugly, aggressive, racist and violent place. I don't like the attitudes. I wish i could get out, but that's not easy when you don't have much money and were born here.

I would much rather be a French, Dutch, German or Israeli citizen than British. I will have to stay imprisoned in their vile attitudes for a while longer I guess.

Patriotism is the LAST resort of a scoundrel and this is Britain's dying gasp of nationalism before the errand boy comes to collect his debt and let's face it the debt is huge and historical. I don't see a bright future for Britain, just a brute one because the British are not able to mix. If we didn't have the cash or the connections well would we be any higher on the evolutionary rung than North Korea? I don't think so. It's full of class privilege, stupid Monarchy that perpetuates the class privilege an a lot of flag waving narrow minded twats according to the view I have.

Drole Britannia (Irish people will get that little jibe), you ain't no #ing good! The thing we are best at in business is selling arms for the rest of the world to kill each other with. That's how nasty little Britain makes its £££. Boom Britannia!

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: nwtrucker

Dominated by whom? the Germans? Basically, that's fulfilling what Hitler wanted, the domination of Europe by Germany.

An interesting question. From a U.S. viewpoint, on doesn't see one State as 'dominating' the others...beyond the number of votes they generate.

If Germany is dominant currently, one would assume it's based on economic power, yes? They would have the same power with or without a 'Union'. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes, the UBI is coming and already implemented in Utrecht.

They find that enacting any of these policies by growing the federal debt — that is, without raising taxes to pay for it — would substantially grow the economy. The effect fades away within eight years, but GDP is left permanently higher. The big, $12,000 per year per adult policy, they find, would permanently grow the economy by 12.56 to 13.10 percent — or about $2.5 trillion come 2025. It would also, they find, increase the percentage of Americans with jobs by about 2 percent, and expand the labor force to the tune of 4.5 to 4.7 million people.

www.vox.com...

I'm going to vote for the UBI in the upcoming German elections. Think it's the perfect solution for the issues you raised as a change can only happen if it's demanded by the people, who have to be empowered first. And financial freedom would help to achieve all that, as would a massive boost to the GDP help to overcome the devision in a very competitive society.

a reply to: PublicOpinion


My limited understanding of the U.S. version that surfaced a few months back...and quieted down quickly, is it was promoted by Silicon Valley types. They envision a robotized industry giving them a huge financial boost and a UBI as an appeasement to the hugely increasing unemployment levels resulting from an automated industrial base.

originally posted by: Revolution9
Britain is becoming a very ugly, aggressive, racist and violent place. I don't like the attitudes. I wish i could get out, but that's not easy when you don't have much money and were born here.

Feel free to leave. Personally, I don't recognise your negative description.

a reply to: nwtrucker

If only it could be just an economic union. Junker is going down a total unificatuion of member states from this point on and they are all going to be ruled from Brussels politically. In addition the continentals are tight as when it comes to military spending. They don't like contributing to NATO but expect Britain and the USA to keep their backs with a resurgent Russia on their border. Screw the EU they can defend themselves they have the economics to do so. European politicians are the sort of people if you go out with them they always forget their wallet or need the toilet when it comes to their round. USA and UK should have a total pivot away from the defence of the EU and let them eat cake

a reply to: Revolution9


Thanks for your input.

I have a few similar feelings towards the U.K.. Only a few, though. I also see some positives that the U.K. has wrought. (Ireland isn't one of them.. )

I can only measure the worth of a system, empirically, by my own life experiences. I can't really bitch. All of the bad choices I've made were mine and mine, alone. I have had 'choices'. The is the crux of the matter. Choices. A reasonable synonym for freedom.

I also see your globalists, not as a 'new world order', but as the old world order...on steroids. I see the very people and mechanism you cite as desiring to expand it's power base, and therefore it's hubris, to new levels.

If the greatest minority is the 'individual' and the bigger the control mechanism gets, the less attention is paid to that 'individual'. Less choices result for that individual. Less freedom.

If I look back at what engendered my levels of freedom, it wasn't due to 'Globalists'. It was due to the nation and it's morays. Nationalism.

Yes, scoundrels aplenty. Also visionaries.

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings." One of those positives borne of the U.K..

a reply to: ufoorbhunter


Under the current circumstance, I agree 100%.

I STILL can't give up the notion that a Phoenix-like rebirth of Europe is an idea of merit. A possible small window of opportunity that still exists.

Yes, I'm pissing upwind. I can shower later.....

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Revolution9
Britain is becoming a very ugly, aggressive, racist and violent place. I don't like the attitudes. I wish i could get out, but that's not easy when you don't have much money and were born here.

Feel free to leave. Personally, I don't recognise your negative description.

Revolution is quite right when stating Britain has gone racist and violent. There is certainly more racism these days. You hear it in the pubs and factories. Something's changed here and the Brexit vote is a sign of that change.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Sure it is a real possibility. Even though some are going head first into a politcal union like the original six members, many on the fringe may well follow Britain and threaten to leave the empire. Poland and Hungary are possibilities for sure.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Revolution is quite right when stating Britain has gone racist and violent. There is certainly more racism these days.

Nope, sorry, don't see it. I see a more grown up debate on issues of immigration and integration, and a challenge of the "politically correct" group-think that gave us mainly Pakistani abuse gangs of white girls and women, and other cultural issues that inhibit integration and subscription into society, like FGM.

a reply to: paraphi
When you put it like that, yes you do make a good point. Those gangs have added some fire to the mix for sure.

Man things would have been different if this EU thing woulda been actual union of these countries and if they actually woulda live up to the example that one woulda expect union to create.. First of all they failed already by letting other powers to dictate the sides in their evil wars, well all we know whole EU was based on that to begin with but lets imagine for a moment that if EU wouldnt have gone that path but instead woulda stayed sort of neutral for picking sides and just kept strenghtening the union and started to create alliances based on truth and those kinda of values. This deal woulda have made wars extremely difficult to start and therefor ppl would have had time to dare to stand up and see whats what.

Instead what we have now is that these leaders of ours sends our forces to foreign countries to destroy their leaders and the ppl and create millions and millions of refugees for decades to come. In so many ways this does not make any sense at all, they must also know how it will turn out, such a increase of populations on already failed/failing systems will just broke the camels back and all hell brakes lose in whole EU and they keep feeding it like throwing gasoline in wild fire to put it out..

originally posted by: romilo
Man things would have been different if this EU thing woulda been actual union of these countries and if they actually woulda live up to the example that one woulda expect union to create.. First of all they failed already by letting other powers to dictate the sides in their evil wars, well all we know whole EU was based on that to begin with but lets imagine for a moment that if EU wouldnt have gone that path but instead woulda stayed sort of neutral for picking sides and just kept strenghtening the union and started to create alliances based on truth and those kinda of values. This deal woulda have made wars extremely difficult to start and therefor ppl would have had time to dare to stand up and see whats what.

Instead what we have now is that these leaders of ours sends our forces to foreign countries to destroy their leaders and the ppl and create millions and millions of refugees for decades to come. In so many ways this does not make any sense at all, they must also know how it will turn out, such a increase of populations on already failed/failing systems will just broke the camels back and all hell brakes lose in whole EU and they keep feeding it like throwing gasoline in wild fire to put it out..

Well said.

So the bottom line is the current E.U. is fubar'd, despite potential economic gains, vested interests.

To this point, it seems the debate/fight has been end it....or continue it. Both options have down sides, yes?

My thought was a third option. A new and improved version of an E.U.. Does anyone think the Junker crowd aren't covering the third option as we speak? Their idea of a 'new and better' version? A Hegelian dialectic?

Who would counter it if not the good people of Europe? Of the U.K.? You guys.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The economic part is also just another tool to keep ppl in check, there is so much corruption in these money gathering offices that no matter how much money they could gather from all the EU countries they keep failing on things they say the money was for, instead created even worse situations for great many ppl, even changed whole ideas between nations in EU, for example before this great money grab here in Finland ppl talk highly of Greeks and their contributes to societies, cultures and so on but now after they got bamboozled by these economic master minds, it was almost instant change how ppl started to talk Greek down like never before, ofc forgetting it wasnt Greeks fault to begin with, there was great plans and they werent that great in generally but for those whom gathered all the money from most EU countries, that alone was big show how much corruption there is but there is more examples, take an already oppressed ppl in EU like Rhoma (gypsies) they are 12 something million in EU and started to get huge investments from EU specially for Balkan areas, to build schools, offices, work, electricity, houses and so on for millions of Rhoma but instead they gave tiny fraction of those gathered aid money to all that and it was failed since start..

Then there is some exposure of this corruption made few years ago too:

Tom Staal: European Parliament Exposed - Absurd Expenses Policies (English Subtitles)
www.youtube.com...

Sry i forgotten how to embed videos again..

More videos:

Tom Staal: European Parliament Exposed - Members Confronted (English Subtitles)
www.youtube.com...

xpense allowance still abused by MEP's
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: nwtrucker

While i do not know how can we get back to what we Europeans could have been and done, i mean i know how to get back tot that but from our situation it will be quite difficult task, so much blind signing orders through, involved in many warfare that wasnt right but indeed illegal actions, tensions with Russia and most likely with many other nations out side, since the lack of truth and accountability in the union that many countries were aligning with, most likely many countries are ready to fake limb leg and try to walk away from EU, again lack of truth, it is like forbidden to talk truth, yes because it is so obvious that corruption is the name of the game...

All that said i have much respect to many European countries on many different things, i know that they would be very capable to build an actual union of continent and towards peaceful world and all of them would got good things to bring in the table, sure some lacks on other things but an actual union would sort these things out in most natural ways but perhaps the issue is already clear and without moving it theres no going forward, the issue is again with the leadership. Or the lack of it, these guys are quite obviously just working for another men plans, it is quite scary realization too, how can so many ppl be totally out of touch with their humanity, what else would these ppl be capable of...

a reply to: romilo


OK. I see your point. I'd rebut, with admitted limited knowledge, that the economic 'hook' exists in any form of Gov't, be it a Union or independent nation.

I would cite the U.S. and the political backlash to the TPP. As large and powerful, in some aspects, the U.S. is, it would be less powerful and therefore subject to a consortium of nations led by Corporate
interests. Bi-lateral agreements, both military and economic favor the U.S. far more than these trade agreements.

That may not be the case with smaller European nations. Even the U.K.. (A separate U.S.-U.K. accord, business-wise seems critical to the U.K.'s departure from the E.U..)

Cleaning up Crony Capitalism would be a large part of a leaner and better E.U., I would guess.