Is a new and better E.U. a possibility?

The idea, as usual, came out of nowhere and is both fragile and not well thought out.

First, one would have to acknowledge the 'good things' that an E.U. has given Europe. (I'm sure there are more that I'm unaware of that posters can add to.) The one that comes to mind and is probably taken for granted is the erasure of European wars. Yes, the overwhelming U.S. military presence-with help from other nations- started the unprecedented peace, but it remains the E.U., as a collective., makes internal European wars virtually obsolete.

The E.U. is more than capable of defending it's own borders without outside assistance, including the U.S.'s.

The more obvious one is the economic aspect of the E.U.. Many have far more knowledge of that one than I and can expand on it further.

The challenge, therefore, is keeping the positive aspects and removing most of the negative ones.

How would one achieve that goal? Well, I propose one possible way. That way is the failed, yes failed, U.S. Constitution. That ideal has been subverted and altered to the point it likely cannot repair itself. Just my opinion, of course. Even if it can, that document can be improved. Tweaked and adjusted to more suit a European view.

More strength to individual country's culture, immigration is one that comes to mind, that allows full autonomy to each and every nation member.

Envision an improved Constitution. For Europe. Designed specifically by and for Europe! Yes, there would be opposition to this concept. Most worthy efforts do have adversaries. Sobeit.

This is way outside conventional thought, but consider the possibility that Europe could take the positives of the Constitution and improve it. Yes, all can be subverted. Yet it took 200 years to get to the mess our side of the pond finds itself. With work, that effort could be well improved with more protections and ways of stepping outside that ideal to address issues not foreseen by the new 'Founders'.

Completely foolish of me, I admit. Then again, why not?

a reply to: nwtrucker

NO, Junker want's to create an empire, the EU will eventually come to blow's with Russia and that will not end pretty believe me.
The EU is a pet project of the one world government believers, it is not about freedom it is about control.
Being British though I am actually now trapped between a rock and a hard place because the TORY party are actually worse than the EU were that is concerned, they have there way we will be an island of serf's and lord's again.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: nwtrucker

NO, Junker want's to create an empire, the EU will eventually come to blow's with Russia and that will not end pretty believe me.
The EU is a pet project of the one world government believers, it is not about freedom it is about control.
Being British though I am actually now trapped between a rock and a hard place because the TORY party are actually worse than the EU were that is concerned, they have there way we will be an island of serf's and lord's again.

I get what your saying. Truly.

Turn it in their faces! Kick those beggars out of it. At the least, marginalize them.

It would be totally unexpected and likely make them spit up their soup.

Russia will NOT tangle with a strong E.U.. Period.

a reply to: LABTECH767

The EU knows that the US has its back no matter what. Russia is contained with NATO so it is not a problem.
That is not to say that the EU isn't dead set on becoming an economic empire--but that doesn't seem possible with Asia coming on strong....

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: LABTECH767

The EU knows that the US has its back no matter what. Russia is contained with NATO so it is not a problem.
That is not to say that the EU isn't dead set on becoming an economic empire--but that doesn't seem possible with Asia coming on strong....

Agreed. The very idea opens a can of worms that approaches almost insurmountable issues.

It was done before. It can be done again.

Economic reasons -so everything is bread and butter there , huh ?
Erasure of European Wars - has a piece of paper ever prevented wars ? I guess they could erase the previous ones though.
Failed US Constitution - how so ? And if it has failed , why would the EU want to adopt a failed policy ?

Is the EU merely a failing experiment in Globalization ?
You know there has been various iterations of a combined Europe over the years , right ?

zero chance. The people who make the laws never have to worry about the electorate getting rid of them so they have no need to change.

originally posted by: Gothmog
Economic reasons -so everything is bread and butter there , huh ?
Erasure of European Wars - has a piece of paper ever prevented wars ? I guess they could erase the previous ones though.
Failed US Constitution - how so ? And if it has failed , why would the EU want to adopt a failed policy ?

Is the EU merely a failing experiment in Globalization ?
You know there has been various iterations of a combined Europe over the years , right ?

LOL. No, not bread and butter. Better than before, methinks. A peace of paper? Guess no war in Europe-or the U.S., internally, is due to 'a piece of paper'. Yeah right.

As far as the failed Constitution goes. You figure it out.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Gothmog
Economic reasons -so everything is bread and butter there , huh ?
Erasure of European Wars - has a piece of paper ever prevented wars ? I guess they could erase the previous ones though.
Failed US Constitution - how so ? And if it has failed , why would the EU want to adopt a failed policy ?

Is the EU merely a failing experiment in Globalization ?
You know there has been various iterations of a combined Europe over the years , right ?

LOL. No, not bread and butter. Better than before, methinks. A peace of paper? Guess no war in Europe-or the U.S., internally, is due to 'a piece of paper'. Yeah right.

As far as the failed Constitution goes. You figure it out.

You posed the statement and I cant read minds....
My psycho ability is not that well developed.

And as far as the individual EU countries economy goes

World Debt Clocks

Pay close attention to the members of the EU..
Used to be able to click on the nations and bring up their own . Then you could go back in years. Interesting would be to look before the EU and shortly after...
You would have your answer.
Looks like Britain got out "in the nick of time"

a reply to: nwtrucker

The E.U. is more than capable of defending it's own borders without outside assistance, including the U.S.'s.

questionable, russia still holds parts of the ukraine and were unable to do anything while turkey has a vast army and no chance of joining the union.

More strength to individual country's culture, immigration is one that comes to mind, that allows full autonomy to each and every nation member.

immigration isn't the problem, as brexit showed its actually african and asian refugees that makes people want out of the union, you can't fix that level of stupidity.
le pen and wilders both went after refugees but the dutch and french public obviously have more common sense.

as the current failing negotiations by the tory party show, there's not much actually wrong with the union, we still want the nurses to come over and we want students to come, we want to be part of the trade deals but we don't like bees.
even the big cheerleaders for leaving seem to have woken up to the fact syria and libya aren't in the european union, cheers boris.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Gothmog
Economic reasons -so everything is bread and butter there , huh ?
Erasure of European Wars - has a piece of paper ever prevented wars ? I guess they could erase the previous ones though.
Failed US Constitution - how so ? And if it has failed , why would the EU want to adopt a failed policy ?

Is the EU merely a failing experiment in Globalization ?
You know there has been various iterations of a combined Europe over the years , right ?

LOL. No, not bread and butter. Better than before, methinks. A peace of paper? Guess no war in Europe-or the U.S., internally, is due to 'a piece of paper'. Yeah right.

As far as the failed Constitution goes. You figure it out.

You posed the statement and I cant read minds....
My psycho ability is not that well developed.

And as far as the individual EU countries economy goes

World Debt Clocks

Pay close attention to the members of the EU..
Used to be able to click on the nations and bring up their own . Then you could go back in years. Interesting would be to look before the EU and shortly after...
You would have your answer.
Looks like Britain got out "in the nick of time"

That 'debt' issue applies to virtually every country in the world. Including the U.S.. That topic is well covered in numerous threads. While it is a piece of the point I make, envision a complete dissolving of the E.U.-which I supported before this idea- each nation with it's own agendas, military, etc., pretty much like it was in the last century.

I merely suggest another possible, if unlikely direction. One of a 'Union' that escapes the grip of those outside electorate control.

Using the U.S. as an analogy, envision a complete dissolving of that Union. All 50 States independent..... A pure cacophony.

As much as I loath centralized gov't's oppression of the States-and of nations in Europe- there is a 'possible' balance point that the U.S. Constitution articulated and has now failed to maintain. (If that escapes, then I waste time in explanation.)

An improved '5.1' version may be worth looking at, JMO, though.

originally posted by: growler
a reply to: nwtrucker

The E.U. is more than capable of defending it's own borders without outside assistance, including the U.S.'s.

questionable, russia still holds parts of the ukraine and were unable to do anything while turkey has a vast army and no chance of joining the union.

More strength to individual country's culture, immigration is one that comes to mind, that allows full autonomy to each and every nation member.

immigration isn't the problem, as brexit showed its actually african and asian refugees that makes people want out of the union, you can't fix that level of stupidity.
le pen and wilders both went after refugees but the dutch and french public obviously have more common sense.

as the current failing negotiations by the tory party show, there's not much actually wrong with the union, we still want the nurses to come over and we want students to come, we want to be part of the trade deals but we don't like bees.
even the big cheerleaders for leaving seem to have woken up to the fact syria and libya aren't in the european union, cheers boris.

Immigration is an example of my point. Yes, it's refugees, not immigrants that are the current issue, I agree. The point is individual choice. By each nation, be it immigration, refugees...whatever that country desires that doesn't adversely affect the others should be a national decision rather than a centralized one. That keeps, or at least better keeps a central gov't more....constrained. Not unlike the Tenth Amendment was intended in the U.S..

I don't think it's even close between an E.U. and Russian fracas. I believe it is mere rhetoric to keep U.S. dollars flowing in to subsidize E.U.. Better aircraft, navy, by far, far better equipped and trained ground forces and enough nukes to keep Russia in check. Now bear in mind the 5 to 1 ration required for an invading force?? Sorry, not questionable at all.

a reply to: nwtrucker

a reply to: nwtrucker
With what you've just laid out the UK would probably still be in the EU. Its what the actual public desire. But Labtech hit yhr nail on the head, Junkers is an empire builder, he wants to push and push against Moscowd domain into places where it is non of the EUs business to be in. merkels plan to make all the countries take in the seeds of Islam is also madness. I voted to stay in the EU ss I believe it is good for business but that is exactly what it shoul have remained an economic union, but Junkers wants it to become a fully fledged political union and for many in Britain that wad a step too far.

the problem with centralized power is that if the system gets corrupted it infects everything.


most of the benefits that come from having the EU could be achieved by countries working together, without having to give up national sovereignty.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Stop.
There .
Your argument is mute. Go back and look at the Debt clock for Italy , Greece , France , Spain and compare those against other countries. See the trend ?
Dont issue a "blanket statement " to refute actual facts and numbers.
Doesnt work that way with me...

a reply to: nwtrucker

Dominated by whom? the Germans? Basically, that's fulfilling what Hitler wanted, the domination of Europe by Germany.

Quite impossible.

The EU from the outset was intended to strip power away from sovereign states and hand it to multinational corporate interests, and dissolve national borders.

There is also no way to juggle the competing interests of the European people within the Union. The interests of a German farmer for example are at odds with those of an Italian or French farmer. No way to please one without pissing off the others.

The European Union is going the way of Western Rome.

The problem with the EU is that it has developed without the wider population knowing what it has become, and what it intends to become.

In the UK we have just started legislation to incorporate EU law into UK law (known as the Great Repeal Bill) as a result of the Brexit decision. I don't think any normal person truly appreciated how deeply UK law had become subservient to EU law. Quite an astonishing lack of oversight as to a creeping take-over IMHO. There's been a deficit of scrutiny and openness which has now been exposed.

The EU seems to be attempting a centralised federal government by stealth. There is a serious lack of transparency and lack of visible democracy governing these movements. The whole ship will now be steered by Germany and France, who will certainly profit and benefit from centralised EU government, but unlike a real country where money is redistributed for the common good, we won't see Germany or France compromising their top-dog position to benefit (say) Poland, or Portugal.

The EU needs to make a choice about what it is, and what it aspires to be. Spell it out. Show the ten year plan! Then the people in the EU can say what they think. The UK has said "no thank you very much". Could the EU be afraid that if such a plan was produced most people would say the same thing? Makes you wonder.

The EU is a force for good. However, the population of the EU is poorly served by the lack of democratic accountability and transparency.

a reply to: nwtrucker

So from one extreme to another,why not let country's and nations take care of themselves,have their own currency,and own laws,is that too much to ask,the youngsters these days were coddled too much,they are afraid to fend for themselves,this is what control does,it emasculates young men then masculates women,wimpy with no backbone