Google employee behind gender email fired

originally posted by: Wildbob77
Sadly there is a gender gap in the IT fields.

The big question is why?

I don't think that it's simple. I worked in IT and saw many successful women but their numbers were small compared to the men in the field.

That is a reality. However I don't think the answer is simple.

It's the same reason there's WAAAYYY more male auto mechanics than female. Do people really think men all get together and agree to not hire women? I'm sure most male auto mechanics would jump at the chance to hire a woman with the same interests and skills, and this is probably especially true in the IT field. Most women just aren't interested in doing that sort of work, hence the low numbers of female auto mechanics and IT workers.

originally posted by: trollz

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Are you saying that you think personality... ...is biological?

You're not talking about biology, you're talking about stereotypes and anecdotal evidence.

Actually, it is in fact biology. Go ahead and google "differences between male and female brains". And yes, personality does come partly from one's biology.

Another pig-in-a-poke claim. I'm not going to prove your argument for you. Google for yourself, and post something that supports your claims.

Like, how a relatively minor difference in brain volume tells someone to be a teacher rather than a construction worker.

Then you can give evidence for which aspects of personality are hard-wired in by biology.

I'll be glad to see the evidence.

a reply to: Gryphon66
stanmed.stanford.edu

Men, on average, can more easily juggle items in working memory. They have superior visuospatial skills: They’re better at visualizing what happens when a complicated two- or three-dimensional shape is rotated in space, at correctly determining angles from the horizontal, at tracking moving objects and at aiming projectiles.

Women are twice as likely as men to experience clinical depression in their lifetimes; likewise for post-traumatic stress disorder.

Women, it’s known, retain stronger, more vivid memories of emotional events than men do. They recall emotional memories more quickly, and the ones they recall are richer and more intense.

females’ brains consistently showed more strongly coordinated activity between hemispheres, while the males’ brain activity was more tightly coordinated within local brain regions.

“To some appreciable degree, these brain differences have to translate to behavioral differences,” says Cahill.

Here's just a few snippets of a 2,500 word article published on the website of Stanford medicine explaining exactly how men's and women's brains are different, why they're different, and what this means for behavior and psychology.

I gave you exactly what you asked for.
There's an entire internet worth of medical articles on this exact subject. Read the one I gave you or look for yourself, I don't care, but don't come back with your usual ATS shenanigans that I've seen you pull in other threads.

Question asked and answered, and here's Google results for you since you're unwilling to actually type a few words yourself: Differences between male and female brains

a reply to: trollz

Excellent! Actual research. Refreshing given the total lack of evidence provided in this discussion.

There are biological brain differences that involve volume, perception and processing.

Now, where's the study that demonstrates that women (or men) are unsuited for certain jobs due to these differences?

I'm not unwilling to type words, I'm unwilling to make your arguments for you.

a reply to: trollz

Good answer, and it should be noted that it has nothing to do with "volume" and everything to with how brains are wired.

Citing a volume difference is a subtle implication by the poster you replied to that he thinks such difference would necessarily lie in a superiority/inferiority complex and not in a complementary relationship. The genders complement one another -- a yin/yang balance. Assuming that our biological strengths and weaknesses divide us along superiority and inferiority also assigns preconceived values and worth to the work somehow assuming that the types of work women most choose to involve themselves in will automatically be of inferior worth to society.

Is this an insight into that poster's attitudes towards women?

a reply to: trollz

His message was heard. This was the cost.

Sometimes you just have to take the hit.

He will get another great job. He is probably a freaking genius.

Googles loss.

a reply to: ketsuko

Talking out the side of your mouth I see.

The statement I made regarding difference in brain volume between males and females only implies one thing ... that the brain volumes of males and females are different statistically.

Speaking biologically the proper term for the difference in males and females is sex not gender. Gender is a socio-cultural construction.

I'd love to see the study that proves a "yin yang" relationship ... care to provide it?

The Stanford study is a great example of actual evidence for a claim ... although we haven't made much progress in relating biological facts to actual vocational success.

He's a liability. Very few employers would appreciate an employee broadcasting their beliefs in gender stereotypes to the entire staff. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Google's liability insurer contacted them when the story first went public with advice to terminate or face a premium increase.

The bottom line for Google is money...not supporting some dude's need to broadcast his very uninspired opinions.

The guy just wanted to get on Hannity and run his mouth.

This happens all the time. A black professor from a black college in NJ got fired for similar reasons talking about BLM on Fox.

www.washingtonpost.com... -says/?utm_term=.c480ae133305

And this was a black college. And she didn't even mention she worked there.

Companies, institutions on all sides of politics are very careful these days.

Professor fired after defending blacks-only event to Fox News. ‘I was publicly lynched,’ she says.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Now, where's the study that demonstrates that women (or men) are unsuited for certain jobs due to these differences?

I'm not unwilling to type words, I'm unwilling to make your arguments for you.

I never said men or women are unsuited for certain jobs. I said there is a lack of women in certain professions due to women simply not being interested in those professions, such as repairing cars, as mentioned previously. Women can obviously get training and education to become auto mechanics and do the exact same job that men can do. Most women, however, don't want to be auto mechanics.

The programmer has lawyered up. Google is about to pay up. They should have just put him in a closet somewhere until he quit on his own.

Fired Google Engineer Pursuing Legal Action

This was in company wide message boards, managers were openly blacklisting anyone who disagreed with their SJW opinions.

The problem is a statistical difference between men and women's job preferences. The management was spending more time preaching than working, insisting gender discrimination is the cause.

All the guy did was offer a second opinion to again the statistics fully backed up by science.

This is a very important part of statistics. Much of the course work is spent learning to identify bias and false correlation.

The phrase "correlation does not equal causation" comes to mind.

a reply to: trollz

So you were speaking of gender roles not physical differences between the sexes.

You're talking socio-cultural factors, not biological facts.

Gotcha

California at-will employment, unless modified by contract.

California is an at-will state, meaning that an employee may be terminated with or without cause at any time and for any lawful reason, with or without advance notice.

What restrictions apply to the above?

An employee’s at-will status may be modified by a collective bargaining agreement, or an express or implied contract between the employer and employee.

Employers are well advised to include specific at-will disclaimers in their company handbooks and any signed offer letters and to further provide that at-will status may be changed only through an express, signed, written agreement (to limit implied contract claims).

Of course, an employee cannot be terminated for an unlawful reason, such as membership in a protected class or in retaliation for engaging in protected activity (eg, complaining about discrimination, complaining about wage issues or whistleblowing).

Link

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: trollz
So you were speaking of gender roles not physical differences between the sexes.

You're talking socio-cultural factors, not biological facts.

Gotcha

Stop trying to do what you're doing.
You saw the article I posted. Women tend more than men towards certain jobs, and men tend more than women towards certain jobs. The overwhelming majority of kindergarten teachers are women. The majority of auto mechanics are men. Men are not prevented from becoming kindergarten teachers; most just don't have any desire to. Women are not prevented from becoming auto mechanics; most just don't have any desire to. Biology and brain chemistry are two legitimate aspects of this, as are many other factors, including at times socio-cultural factors. You know this.

originally posted by: UKTruth
The guy spoke the truth.

There are some jobs that women are not suited to, same as men are not suited to some jobs. It has nothing to do with intelligence or capability, and all to do with interest and desire to do certain types of jobs.

Still, pretty dumb move to criticise an employer in that way.

Ignoring the incorrect statements in the manifesto rant, don't you think any apparent differences in gender participation in particular fields could also be related to feeling excluded, and cultural norms? For example, if a class is 80% males, a woman might feel uncomfortable and, eventually excluded. And the way children are approached and treated can be different by gender, resulting in different life choices and behaviour later on. If we equally or approach children more individually then these gaps go away.

Also the rant writer may be a dinosaur belonging to a history of google sexism, c urretnly being investigated by DOJ:
www.theguardian.com - Google accused of 'extreme' gender pay discrimination by US labor department...

“We found systemic compensation disparities against women pretty much across the entire workforce,” Janette Wipper, a DoL regional director, testified in court in San Francisco on Friday.

Reached for comment Friday afternoon, Janet Herold, regional solicitor for the DoL, said: “The investigation is not complete, but at this point the department has received compelling evidence of very significant discrimination against women in the most common positions at Google headquarters.”

Herold added: “The government’s analysis at this point indicates that discrimination against women in Google is quite extreme, even in this industry.”

Me thinks something stinks.

a reply to: trollz

Personally, I believe that people who *choose* their careers, base it on the skills that they feel confident about and their interests. Pretty much all of that comes from socialization, opportunities, and environment.

If you were praised for certain skills growing up, you may have decided on a career based on the confidence you built from practicing those skills successfully. If you are female and your parents/family/teachers *steered* you towards 'girly' things...made you feel confident in them...then you probably have a decent chance of living out a few gender stereotypes in your career. Likewise, If you are male and your parents/family/teachers *steered* you towards 'boyish' things...made you feel confident in them...then you probably have a decent chance of living out a few gender stereotypes in your career.

There is a pervasive sex-differentiated attitude to raising children, in the U.S. and across the globe. Not that it's all horrible or tragic, it's not.

I don't think physical biology plays much, if any, role in a chosen career. If you are an actress, you will probably be excluded from being cast in male roles, and vice versa. But, I have a hard time imagining many careers driven by physical biology. There aren't many biological differences between the sexes that prevents either sex from doing/being interested in most jobs.

So, I just think this guy is an engineer and not a profound thinker and he was stupid to voice his belief in *biological* gender stereotypes at work.

(Also, I hate working with people and would rather work with things and offer ideas. I just think he is wrong in his opinion.)

originally posted by: jonnywhite

Me thinks something stinks.

Yep. I admit, that's another take I've had on this situation, too: Possibly staged for PR/legal purposes.

a reply to: trollz

No. You've got to decide if you want to talk culture or biology - they're not the same thing; you know this.

The Stanford article? No, the article didn't state any thing about "tending toward jobs" ... it addressed certain differences in processing/perception as differentiated by sex. You're trying to conflate physical differences in the brain with career choice, which is by-and-large a socio-cultural issue.

The subject at large IS complex.

The story of the guy who knowingly broke company policy and those who are whining for him is fairly simple, as is his claim that physical differences between women and men govern career aptitude and choice.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: trollz

So you were speaking of gender roles not physical differences between the sexes.

You're talking socio-cultural factors, not biological facts.

Gotcha

Please don't bring the transexual double-speak into this thread.

Sex and Gender are the same.

The characteristics of masculinity and femininity are social/cultural constructs.