Vatican: Bible Confirms Jesus Was Not Crucified

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Disturbinatti

What's corrupt about God's Word? You call it "Mohammed's (saw) theology" but it's God's, but tell me the corrupt content of Qur'an if you think it is. I doubt you KNOW Muslim theology to be able to criticize, if you did you would not.

Are you addressing my post to Zeta Reticuli which was on target with the thread? Noting that your usual tactic is revealed once again in not one response to my sources and trying to divert the thread with more personal insults and angry spiels of hate.

Are you denying that what I posted is not written in both the Quran and the Gospel of Barnabas as I have shown? If you need more, then I have much more to show you. You need not think that you can deride Christianity without the same disrespect that you have bantered about for a great many threads of your own.

The Bible is in an unoriginal language, and not the real Torah or Gospels.

Your statement is stupid and also not related to the thread at all. More diversion from my post to cover your ignorance.

Ok so..

I already showed how Christian theology is refuted by...CHRIST.

Because you called Monotheism 'corrupt' as if not worshipping someone who said not to worship any but God and inventing a Trinity ISN'T corrupting the teachings of Issa(p).

You responded by angrily ranting about...who knows with you.

But I will simple it down for you.

You worship God , the Messiah and God as the Holy Spirit as Trinity but lie about the 3 part and claim to not pagan or polytheistic though by definition you are.

And you accusation that Islamic theology is corrupt remains a baseless accusation where it will remain because you have nothing on pure Monotheistic worship of God that we do.

I see why you are mad, but if you are it's your religion making you mad, not mine.

Because Christian theology is pagan polytheism. Disguised as Biblical Monotheism, a lie, and lies are corrupt.

You worship 3 'gods' but God is ONE God.

Is it really that complicated? 3 is not 1.

Jesus pbuh isn't God.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
And you accusation that Islamic theology is corrupt remains a baseless accusation where it will remain because you have nothing on pure Monotheistic worship of God that we do.

Islam is an off cut of Christianity which is an off cut of Judaism.

Lies based on lies based on lies. Talk about corruption!!

Why are you so mad? Personality disfunction?

You responded by angrily ranting about...who knows with you.

Pot meet kettle youngling.

I see why you are mad, but if you are it's your religion making you mad, not mine.

No thats just you. Your an angry ignorant dishonest person.

When are you going to grow up Padawan?

Get some exercise, sun and god forbid... a freaking job and stop being a bludger.

Set for life my ar$e!

Master Coomba

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Because you didn't address the fact that you worship someone who said "God is ONE God" AS GOD even though he was not talking about himself as being God. And denied it, and that that makes Christian theology corrupt. Conveniently you feigned confusion. To sn extent anyway. I believe you really are confused.

I have addressed that very subject several times in my past posts. But I really do not want to divert this thread into a shouting match with you. If you wish to discuss that matter of polytheism vs monotheism then by all means let me explain the NT rendition but only if you will agree to reply on target and not divert the subject.

Before this universe was created God created the celestial matter. We do not know if other creations existed at this time nor do we know other creations existed and were destroyed. We are taught that God is totally spirit of which we have no idea what that is, but after God created the celestial matter, He then brought forth an image of Himself which is called Logos or Word. The Word is the celestial physicality of God.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The dead sea scrolls reveal to us that the Torah of the dead sea scrolls are so alike as to the Aleppo Codex that in some of the literature the two (Masoretic and DSS) are in fact word for word. By this it is proven (Linguistically) that the KJV bible (Masoretic MSS) is in accord with the DSS.

What am I then trying to say? I am saying that if Jesus used either the Masoretic text or the Septuagint would make no difference as both agree with Genesis 1:26 of the Aleppo Codex.

So when Jesus said - John_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

If you then believe Jesus, who is your prophet, you cannot deny Genesis 1:26 as being true. And if Genesis 1:26 is true then who was with God when man was formed from the created earth? Are you then saying that written Torah is wrong or has been altered? Yet I show you that Torah has not been altered from the times of the DSS MSS.

Up to this point-- The ball is in your court. --

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Barcs

I'm just telling you what the biblical scholars that have studied the texts extensively based on literary styles and penmanship have determined. Somebody else was writing it for him, there's a difference.

I truly do not understand your point. You are now saying exactly what I have tried to tell you with the exception that Paul need not have been beside the authors telling them what to write about himself. Paul was quite capable of writing his own letters as we have literary evidence that he did indeed write seven of his own. He would have no need of other scribes when in fact he was one himself. That makes no sense whatsoever. I gave you the places and names of the authors of the two Corinthian letters and if you reject them then remain ignorant but it certainly was not Paul that penned either one.

You have no literary evidence that Paul was dictating Corinthians to any scribes whatsoever. You need to show your sources before making a claim such s that. I have heard the very same about Luke as he also penned much about Paul. It simply is your own opinion which is not well founded at all.

Now by foundation, I wrote "literary foundation" and by that I mean that the entire Christian bible far exceeds the Quran with nearly 6000 MSS available and the DSS to verify many of the Hebrew prophets and Torah. The Quran has very little to offer in that respect and requires the Christian Bible to reference their theology. That is the reason so many Muslims use the Christian bible to bolster their lack of education.

I'm really confused now. I provided a quote from wiki that is sourced at the bottom by studies from biblical scholars. Sure, they could be wrong, but the common belief by those scholars is that Paul dictated it. You have no evidence for your claim, merely that Paul referred to himself in the 3rd person a couple times, which proves absolutely nothing because Jesus did the same thing. It's also completely irrelevant that Paul was a scribe. Maybe he didn't want to write any more and took a break. Maybe he was busy spreading the gospel and converting people and didn't have time to sit down and write it all. Maybe he had arthritis. Maybe it was one of the forgeries. I'm not giving my opinion, I'm giving you the conclusion among most biblical scholars. I honestly don't even care, I think it's all rubbish, but you are diverting away from the the guy's point, which was that JESUS DID NOT WRITE THAT. I could care less who penned it or who dictated it. It's not word of god, it's a bunch of letters sent by missionaries.

Basically, you have to reference the writings of Josephus and tie them into the gospel of Mark in reference to Barsabbas getting taken down from the cross. In reality and historically it was Jesus, or Yahoshua who was let down from the cross after 6 hours and tradition reflects the Dead Sea Scrolls in saying that Yahoshua was exiled after being taken down from the cross, because the full name of Barsabbas according to early Church Father Origen was Jesus Barsabbas, which means Jesus the Son of the Father. This coincidence is far too informing to cast aside as mere random. Not when you discover the countless other lies in the New Testament put in their by the Greeks and Romans. Every historical legacy from the Romans was heathen and pagan. Christianity is not exception. The highest ranks in the Vatican are well aware that their own foundation of the church is paying homeage to paganism and therefore the devil.

a reply to: onehuman

I cant see the problem really with him just being a profit rather than a messiah.

End of the day they are all just religious texts that contain accounts written by Man.

Would it not be rather apt if and when God did decide to grace us with his actual presence he turned out to be just as Human as the rest of us?

After we are supposedly created in his image.

a reply to: Barcs

Text You have no evidence for your claim, merely that Paul referred to himself in the 3rd person a couple times, which proves absolutely nothing because Jesus did the same thing.

You have completely misunderstood me in that I have never said that Paul referred to himself in the third person.. What I said was that Paul would not have referred to himself in the second or third person which would have been the case in 1st Corinthians if Paul would have written 1st Corinthians. But Paul did not pen 1st Corinthians as I have shown in my previous posts. 1st Corinthians is accredited to the Pauline epistles by some but as I have stated, in the Hebrew Cepher the two Corinthian letters are accredited to various men who worked with Paul in all sorts of manners.

Let me explain it in this manner - I acknowledge that most people will believe that Paul did write 1st Corinthians and even some KJV authors will also embrace this belief. But the Hebrew Christians have their own sources also which they do not believe this to be so.

The author of 1st Corinthians opens his letter with this sentence --

1Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

Now who would read that and then say that Paul wrote that? If Paul wrote that then he is referencing himself in the second party. Would not Paul have written something in this manner------

[I, Paul, am called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God and also the will of Sosthenes our brother.]

Paul would never identify himself in the second or third party in a letter to another congregation. No one writes a letter without identifying themselves at the onset of the letter or a head note of identification.

Then you can read on down to the 12th and 13th verses and see the very same second party. If Paul had penned this work he most certainly would not have done it in this manner.

1Corinthians 1:12,13
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

How in the world could anyone say that Paul wrote that? It is so obvious that any eighth grade student would not even consider that to be Paul writing of himself in that manner. It is beyond belief that a man with Paul's education would even consider writing in such confusion.

Paul referred to himself in the 3rd person a couple times, which proves absolutely nothing because Jesus did the same thing.

Now you know better that that. We have nothing of Jesus writing anything much less writing in second or third party. There is not one fragment of any literature accredited to Jesus. There is some literature which is accredited to some of Jesus' teachings or preaching but nothing of writings.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Let me address some of your comments. First, many of your conclusions are accurate about "Christianity." However, what you call "Christianity" is not at all according to the Bible and it's teachings.

When said Prophet spoke thus:

"OUR God is ONE God."

"Worship HIM."

>> You are correct in drawing attention to Christendom's misguided confusion regarding to God and Jesus.

tell me the corrupt content of Qur'an if you think it is. I doubt you KNOW Muslim theology to be able to criticize, if you did you would not.

>> I am not here to criticize, only to point things out. "who is more unjust than he who prohibits the name of God being used in his mosques?" (The Cow 114)

What is God's name? The Phoenicians worshiped El, a deified title. Similarly Islam has chosen to worship a deified title Al-lah. God's name is Yehowah, or يهوه. A name that means "He causes to become". This denotes his will will take place as prophesied in the bible.

Jesus ... isn't God

>> You are correct. Jesus is not God. He is referred to in the bible also by his heavenly name Michael. Being God's son, he is the chief representative of God, and thus the head angel (messenger) of God. He is the Archangel, or head of all of the messengers of God.

>> Islam teaches Gabriel is the Archangel, which is not the case...Jesus (Michael) is.

Jesus was referred to "God's angel" at (Exodus 14:19) "Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel's army, withdrew and went behind them.. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them."

Later confirmed at (1 Corinthians 1:10) "I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was the Christ."

I already showed how Christian theology is refuted by...CHRIST.

>> Christendom's theology is refuted by Christ, but not true Christianity. Christendom and Islam both teach of heaven, but what did Jesus mean when he said "Blessed will be the meek, for they will inherit the earth"? (Mathew 5:5) What did Jesus mean when he said "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."? (Matthew 6:10) What did it mean that "the righteous will inherit the earth and dwell in it forever." (Psalm 37:29) Why was Adam put on earth?

a reply to: TheChrome

but what did Jesus mean when he said "Blessed will be the meek, for they will inherit the earth"?

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth --------------

Isaiah revealed the answer when he said --

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The author of Revelation also verified the author of Isaiah when he said --
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Man had already been given lordship over this terrestrial earth --
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

If man is lord over this present earth, as Genesis states, and this present earth will pass away, as Revelation says, then Jesus could not have meant that the meek will inherit this earth. This earth will not be here for anyone to inherit. Therefore it means the new earth, of both Isaiah and Revelation, which will be everlasting.

a reply to: Seede

Where can i see proof the the gospel of Barnabas was added or included based off zero facts? If thats impossible to prove then at what point did this become known?

It just mindboggles me that anyone in their right mind would consider a pedophile as any sort of prophet. They HATE hearing this truth regarding their so-called prophet Muhammed. Truth hurts.

a reply to: Zeta Reticuli

Unfortunately what you have to consider is that in ancient times, and even to this day of age in some cultures, little girls are indeed betrothed and married off at such an early age, never mind also genitally mutilated.

There are no real truths to be had in any organised religious practice or text. Or if there are any truths left they are few and far between.

These texts and scriptures are laced with religious intolerance and control constructs designed to keep the status quo and retard free thought and logical reasoning of the individual.

Possibly worth keeping in mind that Christianity is rather synonymous with the Islamic faith. Consider the fact that they share the same origins which are Abrahamic by very definition.

a reply to: Zeta Reticuli

Where can i see proof the the gospel of Barnabas was added or included based off zero facts? If thats impossible to prove then at what point did this become known?

This is an argument actually between Christianity and Islam with the deity of Jesus at stake.

The Epistle of Barnabas is a complete Greek MSS which is dated to the fourth century. It is accredited to the apostle Barnabas (of the twelve apostles of Jesus) but some scholars are in doubt as to the certainty of the author. Nevertheless of the author, the MSS does agree with the other scriptures surrounding it and does seem to be authentic. This Epistle of Barnabas was accepted in the early churches and read in teaching and edifying Christianity.

In the 16th,17th century there were two MSS of the Gospel of Barnabas found and dated to the 16th and 17th centuries. One was written in Italian and the other in Spanish. The Spanish Barnabas is almost completely lost which leaves the Italian version as accepted by Islam. Within this Gospel of Barnabas it is written that Jesus did not die as depicted in the Gospels of Christianity.

This is in total agreement with Islam since Islam believes the very same. Now the importance of this is that if Islam can propagate this theology in that Jesus did not die, as is told in the Christian scriptures, then Christianity is totally a fabricated religion. So in order for Christianity to refute this disbelief, they must examine the Quran and the Gospel of Barnabas and see how the two agree.

This was done and it was found that there are numerous discrepancies between the Quran and the Gospel of Barnabas. This is very important because that leaves the Quran as non referenced in the literary realm. In other words the Quran has no verification which is in their book. It is considered untrue by most all scholars except scholars of Islam when it is compared with nearly 6,000 Greek manuscripts which comprise the Gospels of Christianity.

The problem Islam has is that they must disprove well over 25,000 Greek and Hebrew MSS. That is an impossible task at best in the literary world. So in effect the Gospel of Barnabas must be sold to the Muslims to bolster the Quran. This was accomplish by altering the Gospel of Barnabas to agree with the Quran.

This is where Samuel Green comes to light. In his work he has shown some of these discrepancies to the reader who would want to see just how corrupt the Gospel of Barnabas and the Quran is.
Source -- www.answering-islam.org...

originally posted by: Zeta Reticuli
a reply to: Seede

Where can i see proof the the gospel of Barnabas was added or included based off zero facts? If thats impossible to prove then at what point did this become known?

Start with (Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius, p. 110), Eusebius, being an early historian, divided early texts into 3 categories: 1) Authentic 2) Disputed 3) Spurious. The Gospel of Barnabas was in the "Spurious" category.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TheChrome

but what did Jesus mean when he said "Blessed will be the meek, for they will inherit the earth"?

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth --------------

Isaiah revealed the answer when he said --

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The author of Revelation also verified the author of Isaiah when he said --
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The new heavens happened when Jesus received his kingship. This happened according to bible prophecy at the beginning of the last century. (Revelation 12:7-10) Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, therefore heaven was cleansed and became "new".

Jesus could not have meant that the meek will inherit this earth. This earth will not be here for anyone to inherit.

This application would contradict (Psalms 104:5) which says "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."

Therefore, "The new earth" as mentioned at Isaiah 65:17, and Revelation 21:1, is a "cleansed earth" , or an earth rid of wickedness. NOT A NEW LITERAL EARTH

a reply to: TheChrome

The new heavens happened when Jesus received his kingship. This happened according to bible prophecy at the beginning of the last century. (Revelation 12:7-10) Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, therefore heaven was cleansed and became "new".

I don't quite understand what you mean by the above statement. Jesus always held His Kingship according to my understanding. As Jesus died He then offered His Celestial New Jerusalem (kingdom of heaven) to the Adamic creation but that had nothing to do with casting the angels out of heaven before Adam was even created. Those are two distinct events. Before Adam was created the war in heaven was instigated by one third of the heavenly host and cast to this earth.

According to the discovery of the Sumerian kings list, on a cuneiform tablet, there were many years of these angels who were cast to this earth who ruled this earth before Adam was created. As Adam was given the earth, these angels were cast into Sheol till the last day of this creation where they are then destroyed. The heaven which was cleansed from rebellion at this point is not the heaven of the Kingdom that Jesus preached. The kingdom of heaven which contains the city of New Jerusalem and the new world is in the third heaven but not in the heaven of The Most High.

The book of Isaiah tells us that --

Isaiah_24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

2Peter_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the whichText the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1,2
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This application would contradict (Psalms 104:5) which says "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."

This is referenced as to mean that the foundations which this universe is built upon will not be removed forever but that is not to say that this universe which is upon the foundations will not be dissolved. Psalms is talking about the foundations of all of the worlds and heavenly host will be forever but not that the universe which is upon these foundations will not be destroyed.

Not only that but you must consider that heavenly is not terrestrial. A new heaven and new earth is celestial and not terrestrial.

a reply to: Seede
The new heavens happened when Jesus received his kingship. This happened according to bible prophecy at the beginning of the last century. (Revelation 12:7-10) Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, therefore heaven was cleansed and became "new".

a reply to: TheChrome
Jesus always held His Kingship according to my understanding.

At Revelation 6:2, Jesus, who is the rider of the white horse, receives his crown at the beginning of the last days in order to complete his conquest.

This was foretold at Daniel 4:17: “all who live may know that the Most High [*Jehovah] rules the kingdom of men, giving it to whomsoever he will, and setting up over it the lowliest of men. [*Jesus] – The Bible: An American Translation (J. M. Powis Smith & Edgar J. Goodspeed) *Brackets mine for explanation.

The book of Isaiah tells us that --
Isaiah_24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Isaiah – Hebrew text and English Translation by Rev. Dr. I. W. Slotki, M.A. says on page 113 “the world has yet to pass through tribulation and sorrow before traitors and treachery would be swept away and the earth could be cleansed.”

This verse reaffirms what I said before, the earth is cleansed, it is not destroyed.

Rev 20:11-15
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If when you die you go to heaven or hell, how would the sea and hell deliver up the dead to be judged?

Does not John 5:28 say “for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out.” - NIV

>>>How would they still be in the grave if when they died, they went to heaven or hell?

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What is the lake of fire? ....Is it hell? ....How is hell cast into Hell?

a reply to: TheChrome

If when you die you go to heaven or hell, how would the sea and hell deliver up the dead to be judged? Does not John 5:28 say “for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out.” - NIV >>>How would they still be in the grave if when they died, they went to heaven or hell?

Revelation is the revelation that will answer your needs but you must consider all scripture to understand. There will be two distinct gatherings of creation yet to come. The first is called the first resurrection by the author of the Revelation of Jesus to John. In this gathering all righteous people on this earth will be gathered and receive their judgments (Rewards). They are then given a new celestial body with a new name and allowed to live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven (New Jerusalem).

This gathering will come after the great tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) but is not the end of this world. Then the Messiah [Word Of God] will appear and rule this earth for one thousand years. It is after this one thousand years that all of the living Adamic creation will be gathered and stand in the Great white Throne Judgment. This entire universe will then be destroyed and those who are in hell will automatically be cast into the lake of fire.

Any one who is in hell has already been judged just the same as anyone in heaven has already been judged. Other
wise they would not be in hell or heaven either one. Now comes the mystery of the sea gave up its dead. Those that are in the sea are not Adamic creation. Those are they which were destroyed by the flood and were not of the Adamic race. The Giants and the Nephiliym and the Eliouds. These are they which found no place with the human creation and are so described by the Hebrews as the watchers who corrupted this world. They have already been judged and now await their destruction.

You must consider that Enoch was accepted literature and taught in the first century congregations along with other outside literature and in the Enochian literature it is understood that these creatures of the offspring of angelic and human sin were not co mingled with the Adamic creation. In fact Enoch One was taught by the Apostles themselves. We know this by the book of Jude were Jude quotes Enoch literature. In this understanding it is well understood that the sea claimed these three races of evil.

Does not John 5:28 say “for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out.” - NIV >>>How would they still be in the grave if when they died, they went to heaven or hell?

Jesus did say this as He preached in John 5:28 but you must remember that at this time He was alive and the Kingdom Of Heaven was not as yet given to this creation. At this time all souls that had died were gathered into Sheol and were separated the wicked from the righteous. Jesus had been prophesied as being in the center of the earth for three days and three nights upon His death. As He then did die and was entombed, He then descended into Sheol and all in Sheol heard the Messiah declare His presence. Those that were righteous ascended into the celestial New Jerusalem while the unjust remained in Sheol (hell). This has already happened in the Christian faith and is neither the first or second resurrection that Revelation declares.

a reply to: TheChrome

What is the lake of fire? ....Is it hell? ....How is hell cast into Hell?

Hell is the Greek rendition of the Hebrew Netherworld [Sheol]. Sheol is the terrestrial place in the earth. It is believed by some as having seven divisions of separating the unjust. It is often referred to as gates of hell. When the earth is vaporized in the end of time, the occupants of hell are automatically cast into their final destruction which is called the lake of fire. The actual earth or Sheol is not cast into the lake of fire but only the occupants are destroyed.

As a soul dies and the body returns to its source, the spirit of that soul is then judged and the justified enter into the celestial realm of New Jerusalem while the unjust are cast into the earth and imprisoned in Sheol. Jesus does not teach that we are literally unconscious in death and remain so till we all wake up one day with the old body united with the spirit. That is rabbinic Judaism and not the doctrine of Jesus.

The lake of fire is not hell.

Isaiah 66:22-24
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

As you can see from the prophet, that the world will be destroyed and that a new heaven and new earth will be made with a new moon. Not a renovated earth and heaven as some do teach, but new heaven and earth. How could people renovate the heaven or make a new moon? That is silly to interpret the scripture in that way. Isaiah agrees with Revelation in that this old world and universe will vanish at the end of time.

As one reads the last verse of Isaiah it will bring many different beliefs into play and while some will believe one thing another will believe another. My understanding is shown here in this last verse of Isaiah as the people who are citizens of God will be reminded forever by those carcases of the ones who have been destroyed. These carcases which are in the everlasting non consuming fire will be present for all creation to be reminded of the rewards of sin. These carcases are actually not terrestrial bodies but are the spirits of the unjust who were in hell and the sea. This is the second death of which Revelation tells us. My belief is that the consciousness of that spirit is destroyed and is referenced here in Isaiah as a carcase. God does not torture and does not punish forever.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TheChrome

What is the lake of fire? ....Is it hell? ....How is hell cast into Hell?

Hell is the Greek rendition of the Hebrew Netherworld [Sheol]. Sheol is the terrestrial place in the earth. It is believed by some as having seven divisions of separating the unjust. It is often referred to as gates of hell. When the earth is vaporized in the end of time, the occupants of hell are automatically cast into their final destruction which is called the lake of fire. The actual earth or Sheol is not cast into the lake of fire but only the occupants are destroyed.

As a soul dies and the body returns to its source, the spirit of that soul is then judged and the justified enter into the celestial realm of New Jerusalem while the unjust are cast into the earth and imprisoned in Sheol. Jesus does not teach that we are literally unconscious in death and remain so till we all wake up one day with the old body united with the spirit. That is rabbinic Judaism and not the doctrine of Jesus.

The lake of fire is not hell.

Isaiah 66:22-24
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

As you can see from the prophet, that the world will be destroyed and that a new heaven and new earth will be made with a new moon. Not a renovated earth and heaven as some do teach, but new heaven and earth. How could people renovate the heaven or make a new moon? That is silly to interpret the scripture in that way. Isaiah agrees with Revelation in that this old world and universe will vanish at the end of time.

As one reads the last verse of Isaiah it will bring many different beliefs into play and while some will believe one thing another will believe another. My understanding is shown here in this last verse of Isaiah as the people who are citizens of God will be reminded forever by those carcases of the ones who have been destroyed. These carcases which are in the everlasting non consuming fire will be present for all creation to be reminded of the rewards of sin. These carcases are actually not terrestrial bodies but are the spirits of the unjust who were in hell and the sea. This is the second death of which Revelation tells us. My belief is that the consciousness of that spirit is destroyed and is referenced here in Isaiah as a carcase. God does not torture and does not punish forever.

Close, but no cigar. Hell, as you said above is Sheol, or the grave. The lake of fire is metaphorical of destruction, why? Because Christ referred to Gehenna numerous times. It was a trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem where people threw their trash to be burned up and destroyed. Thus, the lake of fire as described at Revelation can be understood as total destruction. It means: Death, and the grave (Hell, Sheol) will be destroyed forever.

a reply to: TheChrome

Close, but no cigar. Hell, as you said above is Sheol, or the grave. The lake of fire is metaphorical of destruction, why? Because Christ referred to Gehenna numerous times. It was a trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem where people threw their trash to be burned up and destroyed. Thus, the lake of fire as described at Revelation can be understood as total destruction. It means: Death, and the grave (Hell, Sheol) will be destroyed forever.

The words [lake of fire] appear in the KJV bible in only four verses of Revelation, chapters 19 and 20. Isaiah does not call the realm of perdition as a lake of fire nor does he call perdition as Gehinnom or the valley of Hinnom. In fact the entire subject matter of a celestial punishment has no reference to terrestrial matter whatsoever nor does it even relate to terrestrial punishment.

The valley of Hinnon was located in the Southwest portion of Jerusalem and was the place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch. King Josiah [647 bce - 609 bce] cleansed Israel from this sin and it was rabbinic Judaism that embraced the valley of Hinnom idea as being the place of torment for the dead. Why? Because in 609 bce there was no revelation of a celestial life with a celestial body given to mankind. The kingdom of heaven was not offered to mankind till after Jesus died. There was no knowledge that the evil spirit of souls would die the second death. It was then believed that, collectively, all people died and their spirits were contained in Sheol. Not in Gehinnom but in Sheol.

Rabbinic Judaism is not the doctrine of the Christ Jesus. Rabbinic Judaism does not accept a celestial life with a new celestial body nor a second death which is the celestial death of the spirit. In fact there is almost nothing of the doctrine of Jesus that resembles the doctrine of rabbinic Judaic teachings.

In NT study one must always be aware that the entire Gospels are peppered with rabbinic doctrine and the reason is that the NT is a conversion from rabbinic doctrine to that of the Nazarene doctrine of Jesus. You must be aware that the Apostles were born and raised in rabbinic doctrine. Till they met Jesus they were totally ignorant of His doctrine and continued to learn His doctrine long after Jesus died. In fact all of the Apostles, except John, died with no knowledge of the Revelation of Jesus to John.

So what am I saying? I am saying that the celestial lake of fire in Revelation is that same celestial place that Isaiah tells us in Isaiah 66:24. Both are celestial after the new heaven and earth are disclosed and cannot be terrestrial. Jesus has never taught Gehennom as punishment for the dead. It is strictly a rabbinic assumption that is not of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus has always taught that after death the spirit of the soul is contained in a conscious state in Sheol. He proved this as He called both Moses and Elijah from Sheol on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Rabbinic Judaic teachings are varied. Don't mix Prophetic doctrine with Rabbinic doctrine or with Nazarene doctrine. Nazarene doctrine agrees with those of the prophets with realizing that in Nazarene doctrine there is much more revealed than what the prophets had been given. The very same can be said in the days when Jesus was alive on the earth. IN that time we see Pharisee's, Sadducee's, and Essene's as the front runners of Judaism. All were Jews with different doctrines and oral Torah. When you then apply this to the NT you must understand who is teaching what and to whom is it being taught.