Pre-Sumerian Civilizations of Ancient Ukraine (20,000 BCE)

...and the granite sanctuary-observatory of Steppe pyramid (still venerated by Tibetan llamas)...

Sorry. Your post is interesting and I'm still researching some points, but... I couldn't resist. I give you,

TIBETAN LLAMA

a reply to: Harte
Thanks... so what do think?

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Attempting to locate Aratta in the Ukraine is silly, the texts indicate it was South East of Uruk and beyond Susa and Anshan, most likely Jiroft.

Inana bids him send a messenger to Aratta, who ascends and descends the "Zubi" mountains, and crosses Susa, Anshan, and "five, six, seven" mountains before approaching Aratta.

Aratta

a reply to: Harte

I think we're much better off without the Fell's of the world. He's a couple of notches above Sitchin in the grand scheme of things but only because he did legit work in marine biology before attempting to tie any and every achievement of Aboriginal Americans to unsubstantiated high frequency old world contact. Just a pet peeve of mine when people try to use their credentials to fool the general public by presenting ideas not within their purview or even resembling their area of expertise. But we see that crap all the time with YEC proponents. "We have 700 PhD's who have signed our lettter disputing such and such hypothesis or theory" but they don't ever tell you that all of those PhD's are in economics or computer science haha. At the end of the day, I know better than to challenge my father in law on concepts pertaining to regional ec Monica and he knows better than to challenge me on Pleistocene hominids. I know, I know... I'm just some liberal elitist after all. I'm all for expanding our knowledge base and exploring areas that may not have been in our initial area of study. It's one of the most beautiful parts of the human experience. But when people buy a cardboard box labeled gold bullion and don't check the contents because the guy they received their bill of goods from had a Masters or Doctorate and then proceed to attempt to convince me it's definitely bullion despite the stench and swarm of flies... well I guess it's just another Thursday on ATS!

a reply to: Kantzveldt
It's much easier to look for Kamyana Mohyla, Aratta is the province or country which Kamyana Mohyla is located... so I guess, the surrounding area was Aratta.

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Kamyana Mohyla is an interesting site and doesn't need to be confused with the Sumerian tradition of Aratta, there is absolutely no possible relationship, the origins of Uruk culture which formed the basis for Sumerian lay in the Ubaid and that had it's origins in Iran.

Beyond the Ubaid

a reply to: Byrd

125,000 years ago max?

We have to keep in mind, that the ice age(s) demolished those parts of the world pretty good, grinding almost all bone matter to dust, especially small bones such as humans, and when considering the burial methods, well, lets just say they were not in it for the long run.

What a bummer, this other site will not allow me to make a link.. it was about the ebb and flow in the migration of humans in the early Pleistocene. They moved with the climate, earlier than thought..

His dating methodology is pretty dodgy looking...

My observation is that there was an unknown pre-Thracian advanced civilization living around the coastline of the lake /now The Black Sea/ before The Great Flood. So why not in Ukraine.
Here some examples :

8,000-Year-Old Nephrite ‘Frog-Like’ Swastika In Bulgaria’s Neolithic Settlement – Unearthed




Discovery Of Giant Human Rock Faces, Ancient Shrine And Astronomical Observatory Offers Evidence Of A Pre-Thracian Civilization

a reply to: Kantzveldt
It was Shilov's position that Aratta was in the Ukraine. I guess Carter and Philip will very much disagree. From Tim & Heatherlee Hooker's translators' preface of Shilov's book:

Several locations across Iran have been tentatively suggested as probable identifications of Aratta. However, when we learned that there was firm evidence of it having been on the territory of modern-day Ukraine we immediately accepted an invitation from Dr. Volodymyr Krasnoholovets to meet Dr. Yuri Shilov (his close friend and author of this book) and to join in a small party that they would conduct to various significant Arattan sites across Ukraine.

Whatever those firm evidences will be worth examining.

Thank you for the link and video. Beyond the Ubaid is quite a long read. If you don't mind my asking, what is Ubaid's connection to Aratta? I browsed the table of contents and I didn't see Aratta mentioned.


a reply to: iasenko

My observation is that there was an unknown pre-Thracian advanced civilization living around the coastline of the lake /now The Black Sea/ before The Great Flood. So why not in Ukraine.

Thank you for your contribution, I'm sure Harte will like The Great Flood idea.

Whats the connection of Sarmatian culture to the site?

a reply to: Madrusa
From what I understand, Anatoly Kifishin, a Sumerian scholar was the one who deciphered the petrogylphs and proto-Sumerian scripts inside the caves and grottoes of Shu Nun, Kamyana Mohyla site. The Sumerian deities such as Gatumdug, Nandar, Utu, Enlil and Anu were mentioned in the scripts and even the... Anunnaki! It was said to be dated 20,000 BC. That's mind boggling if proven right.

The problem is all of the books cited by Yuri Shilov in his book Ancient History of Aratta-Ukraine : 20,000 BCE - 1,000 CE as reference are all written in Russian and maybe East Slavic or Ukrainian. Unless all of them are translated in English and/or a group of Western experts in the field visited Ukraine to study the sites, we can never tell.

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva
a reply to: Harte
Thanks... so what do think?

Like I said, it looks more like Ogham.
Pretty sure it's not though. Ogham is much more recent.
It could be tally marks.

Harte

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva
a reply to: Madrusa
From what I understand, Anatoly Kifishin, a Sumerian scholar was the one who deciphered the petrogylphs and proto-Sumerian scripts inside the caves and grottoes of Shu Nun, Kamyana Mohyla site. The Sumerian deities such as Gatumdug, Nandar, Utu, Enlil and Anu were mentioned in the scripts and even the... Anunnaki! It was said to be dated 20,000 BC. That's mind boggling if proven right.

"Anunnaki" is not a Sumerian word and the Russian Academy of Sciences scoffs at Kifishin's claims: link

Harte

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

But does it need to be the most far fetched option??

(Not referring to you or the op just in general)

Is it more likely that by advanced we mean "had agriculture and a little bit of Bronze/copper work, but 5 thousand years early..an amazing achievement!!

Or that they were a nuclear society with flying cars and the global society that requires, and we're still using stone buildings and chisels, fit fun???

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Kamyana Mohyla is an interesting site and doesn't need to be confused with the Sumerian tradition of Aratta, there is absolutely no possible relationship, the origins of Uruk culture which formed the basis for Sumerian lay in the Ubaid and that had it's origins in Iran.

Beyond the Ubaid

Agree, absolutely.

(I know... you're shocked, right? )

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

It's a question of the texts associating important Southern Mesopotamian Deities with Aratta, such as Enki, Nanna, Nisaba, Inanna and their having Temples there, that's surprising because even in Mesopotamia Cities tended to have only one or two major Deities associated with them, what that suggests then is that Aratta had a common formative basis to Southern Mesopotamia, and that would have been Ubaid culture which developed in SW Iran, though the main focal point for that is considered in the region of Susa.

It seems to have been the case that the Ubaid culture developed first in Iran then extended into Southern Mesopotamia, but that the Iranian sites underwent collapse and Uruk became the primary centre of Ubaid culture, they then extended their influence over the former sites and re-established them, this known as the Uruk sphere of influence period leading on to Sumerian civilization, so the conflict between Uruk and Aratta would be in that context.

The series of papers on the Ubaid in the link also covers the Ubaid figurines, those enigmatic serpent headed figures, and the evidence from Iran is that those serpent headed figures practised their rituals on the large platform constructs with the Temple buildings on top, the examples from Jiroft/Aratta of a hero figure associated with twin serpents had earlier representation in terms of the Ubaid serpent cult as it's basis.



a reply to: Byrd

No not really, but it's nice of you to say so.

a reply to: Harte
Well kudos to you, I had a hard time finding anything on google search about Anatoly Kifishin that I already doubt if I got his name spelled right. I even looked for him in a long list of Russian scientists... nada.

Maybe a few definition of terms is in order that got me confused? From ancient.eu

Sumer was the southernmost region of ancient Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq and Kuwait) which is generally considered the cradle of civilization. The name comes from Akkadian, the language of the north of Mesopotamia, and means “land of the civilized kings”. The Sumerians called themselves “the black headed people” and their land, in cuneiform script, was simply “the land” or “the land of the black headed people”. In the biblical Book of Genesis Sumer is known as Shinar.

Mesopotamia (from the Greek, meaning 'between two rivers’) was an ancient region in the eastern Mediterranean bounded in the northeast by the Zagros Mountains and in the southeast by the Arabian Plateau, corresponding to today’s Iraq, mostly, but also parts of modern-day Iran, Syria and Turkey. The 'two rivers' of the name referred to the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers and the land was known as 'Al-Jazirah' (the island) by the Arabs referencing what Egyptologist J.H. Breasted would later call the Fertile Crescent, where Mesopotamian civilization began.

Babylon is the most famous city from ancient Mesopotamia whose ruins lie in modern-day Iraq 59 miles (94 kilometres) southwest of Baghdad. The name is thought to derive from bav-il or bav-ilim which, in the Akkadian language of the time, meant ‘Gate of God’ or `Gate of the Gods’ and `Babylon’ coming from Greek. The city owes its fame (or infamy) to the many references the Bible makes to it; all of which are unfavourable. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 11, Babylon is featured in the story of The Tower of Babel and the Hebrews claimed the city was named for the confusion which ensued after God caused the people to begin speaking in different languages so they would not be able to complete their great tower to the heavens (the Hebrew word bavel means `confusion’).

Assyria was the region in the Near East which, under the Neo-Assyrian Empire, reached from Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) through Asia Minor (modern Turkey) and down through Egypt.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

But does it need to be the most far fetched option??

(Not referring to you or the op just in general)

Do you mean why Ukraine of all the places?

Is it more likely that by advanced we mean "had agriculture and a little bit of Bronze/copper work, but 5 thousand years early..an amazing achievement!!

Again, I agree. We can also add religion with its intricate rituals, astrology, a legal structure, building skills, language and recording or writing and as you mentioned, specialized skills or trade. It all points to a developing civilization.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Thanks, I appreciate it.

originally posted by: iWontGiveUP
Perhaps why Crimea is such a hot spot these days

What are they really fighting over?

Pipeline access