Universe 25 and The Beautiful Sink

a reply to: Peeple

I like learning new things. A few classes away from minors in demography and sociology (and history and music--probably explains my scattered brain ideas! lol). Forgot about Calhoun and did not know of hikikomori either.

a reply to: Anaana

Matricide? Not so much. But the other way around like caring for their young was so bad that the mice were not taught how to function; on moves to get away from other mice, moms would drop their babies and never pick them back up if they remembered to take them in the first place; infanticide was also a problem. The birth rate dropped to zero. Which at that moment meant doom and only a matter of time. The experiment was stopped with something like 200 mice left because there was no need to condemn them to certain death. The society had failed completely.

A neurotic and dysfunctional population... who would not look to Universe 25 for some comparisons? There seem to be similarities enough some innate, mammalian behaviors to draw some comparisons. Using DMS-V does not work... so the ramblings of a mad man on some remote corner of the net! There are sites that point out your same points, I was trying get thoughts. One more I have not seen, the experiment was back in 1970 and here we are in 2017. There are so many changes, understanding, schools of thought, a level of sophistication, that Calhoun is almost a curiosity now.

"You dirty rat!" Which is why I played The White Stripe song!

a reply to: sapien82

Bath salts. OK.

How about work place violence as a behavioral sink? Btw, that is how this thread got started! I said, "rats in a cage" and I've been down this line of thought.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

You said that guy who at the other dudes face off in Florida , he was later tested positive for the drug known as "bath salts"
which is psychoactive and hallucinogenic

he then proceeded to freak out and cannabalise that poor mans face

so it would be very difficult to say it was anything other than drug induced violence .


It would be very difficult to measure this in human populations due to so many contributing factors , the best place to carry out these studies would be on long term space flight training for like mars , where humans share small spaces for long periods of time under the same conditions

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
Matricide? Not so much. But the other way around like caring for their young was so bad that the mice were not taught how to function; on moves to get away from other mice, moms would drop their babies and never pick them back up if they remembered to take them in the first place; infanticide was also a problem. The birth rate dropped to zero. Which at that moment meant doom and only a matter of time. The experiment was stopped with something like 200 mice left because there was no need to condemn them to certain death. The society had failed completely.

This is interesting, comparitively speaking. Even in the Nazi Concentration camps pregnancies occurred as often as opportunity allowed. Even under the most extreme of situations humans can and do continue to reproduce. Starvation may stop or alter the menstrual cycle of some women but by no means all. Consider the case of Josef Fritzl and his daughter who bore his children locked in a basement for 24 years. Confinement based overcrowding does not affect fertility in humans in the same way it does in Universe 25. Not that a Concentration camp, as a place to grow up, is going to do anyone any favours psychologically, but it does make me think that being born into a reservation may kind of feel similar to being born into a concentration camp.

Thinking about that in terms of Universe 25 and the same thing arises, that conflict to stay or go, being torn apart by the two worlds, inside and outside. The rodents can't leave, the inmates can't leave, the young people on the reservation can. Perhaps it's the knowing you can escape but don't have the skills applicable to do so, or even wanting to.

The death of Universe 25 seems implosive. Human societies just disperse, or explode and seed. I think most city dwellers will agree that each city has at least one area that can be equated with the Behavioural Sink, and Beautiful Ones, in clusters, seemingly oblivious to it all. Confinement is largely a state of mind, in both human counterparts. The former don't see anything but barriers, while the latter use their wealth and position to get others to guard those barriers. Any evidence of "enforcers" in Universe 25? A mid-level buffer zone?

a reply to: Anaana

I believe that as humans we no longer face the same environmental factors which affect animal populations in terms of reproduction

We are no longer controlled by our genetics in terms of reproduction because animals normally only breed when food is abundant and there is relative safety in the colony or group , which I assume is their genetics controlling their hormones etc from environmental feedback

humans on the other hand no longer live in nature and so are no longer reliant on our genetic programming and instead we use our consciousness and reason and logic to make the decisions , we still face some form of environmental feedback but not in the natural environment from the built human environments

So we will continue to breed and reproduce so long as its relatively safe environment and even then we still reproduce during war or disease .

This is a point for another subject as well which I suppose is related to this in the sense of our genetics , how males are still attracted to young females from the earliest signs of sexual maturity , socially now its immoral and considered wrong or bad /evil , however 1000 years ago there is no such distinction and breeding was carried out with pubescent teens regardless of their age as it was about survival of the species , we relied on our genetics to get us through, now we are apex predators and out of the food chain we no longer worry about these pressures and so have relied less on our programming to survive as we live in built environments and we control our populations to an extent we also change our breeding habits and its now considered immoral to have sexual relations with anyone younger than 16.

but today many males are still attracted to young females, why because we are programmed this way , the majority of males follow society and abstain from as its morally wrong and illegal , however some males and females fall fowl of their ego and move from thought to action and once action has been carried out it becomes dangerous , and humans are easly addicted to anything that gives pleasure (satisfying the ego).

Maybe this is why this problem occurs because we are programmed and basically our consciousness is in a battle with our genetic programming and ego .

Just some tangential thoughts.

The thing about this , is we always have a choice not to destroy and not to withdraw from society , as long as a human has hope they can overcome pretty much any obstacle

Ive just started reading Sapiens by Dr Yuval Noah , interesting read and it got me thinking about most of our problems today seem to come from a battle between our genetics, our animal inheritance against our consciousness , logic and reason.

It's like we have ripped ourselves from nature and now we are suffering a withdrawal symptoms all of the societal wrongs are a by product of this ? maybe I'll continue to read the source materials for better understanding

a reply to: sapien82

I just wasn't sure if he was tested or what the results were.

Odd that you mention "space flights" in your response! I read a story about "archaea" being found in the skin as part of its microbiome. I had no idea what it all meant but I found it funny and strange at the same time. The end of the article says they finally did a comprehensive study because it needed to be done because of human space exploration!!

a reply to: Anaana

I was thinking how different we are from mice and what those differences do.

There are lower "animal" parts of the brain. All I wanted to really say is we can see some of the same behaviors in humans that we see in the mice--a shared, mammalian, part. I would expect this across the board in mammals. The "fight or flight" instinct, for instance.

The one thing that pushes us beyond--language. Written, spoken, recorded, education, the internet, those devices we invented to separate us from ourselves (cell phones), technology... all of these things are available for us to use. And we change, modify, update, make better versions... I know we are not doomed.

There was no need for "enforcers" because all was available to all. The closest thing is the female Beautiful Ones would let a male or two join their "apartment" and they would guard the entrance. One commentator said since there was, typically, only one entrance/exit to the "apartments" and the whole environment was set up to segregate the population.

And there you go! Situational awareness!! Always know your two exit points!

a reply to: sapien82

Humans, given a less protected environment than the urban one, appear to be much like other higher mammals in that reproductive rights have to be earned. The harsher the environment, the greater the obstacles against reproducion. Pregnancy in young women, without modern medical intervention, is often more dangerous, particularly for the mother and generally is only encouraged where women have less social or economic value, or where conflict causes a need to replace those dying. In many pre-urbanised societies, everything from polyandry to abortifacients are and were utilised as a means of controlling reproduction, and new life was generally valued and cherished rather than treated as a commodity. Old men and young girls, I think, gained prevalence with the creation of city states, and particularly with expansionism of those as warring states and empires.

In numerous cultures, it was expected that older women and widows, those past reproductive age, should take young lovers. A very effective means of preventing seeds being sown prematurely. Youths getting married too soon was discouraged in many cultures, which is why we have stories of men needing to prove themselves before gaining their intended's hand. These are, forms of birth control.

Stress does affect a person's, and most mammal's, ability to conceive and or carry to full-term, but that we can distract ourselves from feeling stressed, have developed tools that relax us, meditation and the like, and have even evolved to find sex relaxing and enjoyable, beyond it being a simple biological release, it releases chemicals in us that increase our attachment, is kind of interesting. I'm not sure why, but reproductively we're very different from other mammals just in that we can engage in recreational sex and by simply counting the days, women were able to take control of their own reproductive cycle. Young women, physically, emotionally and economically unprepared for child-birth and -rearing, isn't good for any society, particularly when those women, because their own mother's perhaps died in child-birth, are completely ignorant of the workings of their own bodies. I think that kind of thing is detrimental for any society, whether the husband is young or old, he knows nothing of women's things and is nay use either way. That's definately a point where the rot could set in.

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: sapien82

Humans, given a less protected environment than the urban one, appear to be much like other higher mammals in that reproductive rights have to be earned. The harsher the environment, the greater the obstacles against reproducion. Pregnancy in young women, without modern medical intervention, is often more dangerous, particularly for the mother and generally is only encouraged where women have less social or economic value, or where conflict causes a need to replace those dying. In many pre-urbanised societies, everything from polyandry to abortifacients are and were utilised as a means of controlling reproduction, and new life was generally valued and cherished rather than treated as a commodity. Old men and young girls, I think, gained prevalence with the creation of city states, and particularly with expansionism of those as warring states and empires.
...

Wtf? Important thought, perfect timing. That's the kind of synchronicity and thought provocation I like...
Sorry for the interruption.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
There was no need for "enforcers" because all was available to all. The closest thing is the female Beautiful Ones would let a male or two join their "apartment" and they would guard the entrance. One commentator said since there was, typically, only one entrance/exit to the "apartments" and the whole environment was set up to segregate the population.

And there you go! Situational awareness!! Always know your two exit points!

When I studied Sociology at A-Level (many, many, many moons ago) we looked at the street corner gangs, can't remember the chap who did the study, White-something or other may be, I'll see if I can dig it out, but gang culture in general works more along the lines of natural selection, or survival of the fittest at least. Herbert Asbury's "Gangs of New York" "...San Francisco" etc are also good, or any good study of the "underworld" anywhere around the world. The rodent bouncers of Universe 25, as well as the roving bands of young males, is very reminiscent of those worlds within worlds.

The problem, of Universe 25, seems to have been the segregation, don't you think? Or if basic needs are provided, and sex is not a viable/exchangable commodity, then access to resources (eating first) is not something that can be use to challenge, or to achieve social dominance, does space then become the challenging point (however futile it is given the surplus of space)? Do males just have to have something to fight about? The females, getting nothing out of the reproductive process, there being no pleasure in the deed, simply opt out, and enjoy the peace and quiet. Those males, willing to stand guard in exchange for a nicely kept room, seemingly happy just to offer assistance, if needed, to the pretty lady is kind of like chivalrous knights of yore, and shows some ability to adapt social conventions. That's kind of funny, in a funky kind of way.

a reply to: Peeple

Oh, Universe has been tossing those out to me recently!

I was waiting to cross the street, thinking to myself, "Here I am going to the 'water bottle' to hang out with the tourist mice, have a," when a bus goes by with a sign and the first word I see is what I was thinking, "drink."

I've been placing my actions as if I'm one of the mice in U 25 and seeing what my behaviors are! I'm a "social drinker" and feign at being sociable at common gathering places!! Then off to the "apartment" (which only has one door! Hah!) to sleep, wake up, and groom myself! LOL!

At the Meta Café, posted a few more. But check it out U25!! I'm listening to "How to dismantle an atomic bomb" and the lyrics are, "we fight, all the time, that's alright, we're the same soul"!! I guess sometimes you can't make it on your own!!

a reply to: Anaana

Segregation and possibly a fair distribution of space. The constant contact with other mice made them nervous. That lead to violence and isolation of the young male mice. Nothing to do in society they bunched up in the center of the enclosure (center of the Universe!). Violence against others and amongst themselves. Reminds me of a description of Chicago in an oblique way. See what is happening in France and Sweden among the refugees (they found that the males lied about their age and are teenagers or early twenties)?? Again, a behavior trait that has been witnessed in Universe 25.

See my reply to Peeple about me playing self-psychologist while running in the rate race!

Chivalrous knights. The Beautiful Knights of the Universe!!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Segregation and possibly a fair distribution of space. The constant contact with other mice made them nervous.

This parallels the starling increase in social avoidance and social anxiety disorders reported by younger teens/twentysomethings. They're more comfortable sitting in their rooms and communicating via webcam, youtube and various social media. The very thought of interaction in the "real world outside" can send many into an absolute panic.

Perhaps the rise in autistic hyper-sensitives is also a human evolutionary adaptation to such a crowded and overwhelming urban landscape. I never bought into the anti-vax hype. I just assumed the rise in diagnosed autism was a natural human reaction to being born into a world with such an overload of sensory stimulation and large population. The young mind just "reverts" back into itself, withdraws so to speak, in order to tune out and filter unnecessary and unwanted information as they begin to "adjust" to the new environment.

As to the "Beautiful Ones"....I have personally seen a rise in immaculately groomed youth. There is an entire subculture dedicated to meticulous grooming and promotion of beauty products. Many of these youth express gender and sexual preferences that are decidedly contrast to the traditional hetero-normative persuasion, and the focus is on mutual pleasure, not child bearing or reproductive desire.

There is also a rise in hyper-dominant males who protect the aforementioned subcultures.

It's not the kind of thing you read on the news, but one can connect the dots if one knows where to look.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

Can you elaborate on your thoughts in this post? For example, you said: "There is an entire subculture dedicated to meticulous grooming and promotion of beauty products. Many of these youth express gender and sexual preferences that are decidedly contrast to the traditional hetero-normative persuasion, and the focus is on mutual pleasure, not child bearing or reproductive desire."

What exactly do you mean by "many of these youth express gender and sexual preferences that are decidedly contrast to the traditional hetero-normative persuasion, and the focus is on mutual pleasure, not child bearing or reproductive desire."?

For example, I'm a lurker on some skin care forums on Reddit and they're all about skin care and beauty products. I'm guessing these are what you're referring to as well as beauty/skin care blogs/bloggers. (Which begs the question: are you female? How do you know about these if you haven't sought them out yourself? You don't just find these "knowing where to look" If you know about these places on the web then you must have actively sought them out yourself or seen a loved one on them.) Some of us on these forums have skin care routines that are 1.5 - 2 hours long and yes the focus is on our own pleasure and the relaxation and beautifying effects. And no I don't have children. But as for "reproductive desire", if by that you mean sex well I'm certainly one for that as well so no issue there if that's what you meant. But I don't understand what you mean by "these youth express gender and sexual preferences that are decidedly contrast to the traditional hetero-normative persuasion." Are you implying the people on these forums are LGBT or trans-gendered? As that's certainly not what I've seen. For example, I'm a female who enjoys being a female and wife and yes I love all things girly and beauty related. Which is more related to estrogen than anything. So idk what you mean by that as the majority of users on these forums have been mostly females.

Elaborate on exactly what sub-cultures regarding grooming you're referring to please.

You also said: "There is also a rise in hyper-dominant males who protect the aforementioned subcultures."

Idk what you mean by that either. I'm trying to see where your thoughts are coming from and how you came to these personal conclusions. For example, my husband is a manly man and would defend my beauty routine and my right to do whatever the hell I want including spending 2 hrs a day beautifying. So I'm just trying to figure out if that's what you mean or are you insinuating the LGBT community, trans people and such that these supposed "hyper-masculine" males are protecting? As that's not what I've seen either. I've seen a lot of what seems to be "hyper-masculine" men on ats defending hyper-masculine Trump. Not LGBT or trans related posts.. So some elaboration on your thoughts for clarity would help as I don't believe anything you said was said with enough elaboration for most people to even either agree with or counter to for further discussion.

Women have been fascinated by and in love with beauty related everything since Ancient Egypt. Like Cleopatra bathing in milk. And men have been used to females being this way. I mean what male here hasn't bought his own mother or sister or wife some sort of beauty/bath related items as presents? Usually girls start to enjoy the world of beauty products, skin care, cosmetics, nail polish etc around 12 years old and up as that's around when puberty (and estrogen) ramp up! I even personally noticed a ramping up of my love for beauty products and beautifying whilst on birth control pills (because of increased estrogen).

a reply to: XxXAphroditeXxX

It's been a long slow and laborious process of over fifteen years of social media observation over several popular and lesser known online venues and I wouldn't know where to begin telling you to "look" for this information, for that I am sorry.

For the quoted text, I should have paragraphed as they are not discussing the same groups.

Personally observed population samples, nothing more nothing less.

I'm sorry I didn't have the foresight to this thread appearing otherwise I would have documented the past fifteen years more diligently.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
I've been placing my actions as if I'm one of the mice in U 25 and seeing what my behaviors are! I'm a "social drinker" and feign at being sociable at common gathering places!! Then off to the "apartment" (which only has one door! Hah!) to sleep, wake up, and groom myself! LOL!

I think that you may be over identifying with the mice

Forcing mice to live like humans, the mice exhibit human-like traits. It doesn't really address why we choose to huddle in the way that we do other than in the fundamental similarity, a reliable food distribution system and security (comparatively) of shelter. If it is to be a "fair" representation of human society, as it stands, access to resources would have to be biased towards certain groups.

Given how strongly you identify with the studies, do you think that Rockefeller (et al?) have geared US society to reflect Calhoun's benevolent dictatorship in order to create that population implosion that leads to a failure to thrive? Are you failing to thrive because maintaining your current position is too easy? Or is thriving without flourish?

As General Eyes points out, grooming is a multi-billion pound industry. As a species we are obsessed with appearance but in pre-industrial societies, grooming is usually a social or shared activity, but then most everything is within those societies. You would seldom ever be alone. So, why are we so desperate to be alone when we huddle in bigger groups? What are the "unnecessary interactions" that are causing the mice so much anxiety? And what do they equate to in our lives?

Most importantly, you have to ask yourself, are you a man or a mouse?

a reply to: Anaana

Sorry, I was washing my hair!



I'm a man. But I can change... If I have to, I guess.

That was just a funny observation during the "rat race" home. My little "hamster tube" travelling along a "defined path" to go "socialize" around the "water bottle" (bar) with other "well groomed mice." I was bored as I was walking down the street and just having some fun! It made me laugh!

But there something nagging about the whole thing.

This popped up on the Beebs today: Japanese young people 'not having sex'

(posting the link so I can watch after work)

So is it just a "cultural thing"? More hikikmori overflow? Or anything to do with U25 and Calhoun? Something else altogether?? IDK. Just that U25 does fit in to a point. Which is the whole point of the thread. Not that U25 describes our world but some behavioral aspects do seem to fit.

Professional women are freezing their eggs due to a "dearth of educated men to marry", a US study has claimed.

Yale University researchers suggested an "oversupply" of graduate women left them struggling to find a partner and "desperate" to preserve fertility.

They said the "man deficit" was worse in countries where more women were going to university, as in the UK.

The researchers interviewed 150 women who had frozen eggs, of whom 90% said they could not find a suitable partner.

BBC.com, Health, July 6, 2017 Women graduates 'desperately' freeze eggs over 'lack of men'

The youth in Japan, well educated women in the US and UK, an overall aging population.

Spinster mice and the Beautiful Knights of the Universe!

It is not a 100% fit. Agreed, it was a flawed study. It was 19070. Yet here is another example of 'desperate' behavior in the human population. Anybody else have a better explanation I'm all ears... said Mickey Mouse!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

You know it depends on what society you're looking at. How much they're struggling to survive.
And you have to factor in some humans show altruistic behaviour, which mice don't I guess.
But rats do I believe. So maybe they should do the experiment again with these guys


How do altruistic mammals behave in a scarce resources situation

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
This popped up on the Beebs today: Japanese young people 'not having sex'

That was far more interesting than I expected it to be.

I can relate to the points made by the ladies, and I think that many working women can. Maintaining a relationship takes a great deal of energy, energy that is perhaps, given the current economic climate, better directed towards economic and social security, hence, in Maslow's terms, the sex drive does not kick in. Too busy treading water. Success is hard and it takes work and commitment. So do relationships, successful ones anyway, and traditionally, most certainly in Japan, women can be restricted, literally and figuratively, by the men in their lives. I should imagine, if it was more cultural acceptable, they may engage more widely in no-strings sex, since it isn't, they do what women who want to succeed have done for centuries, and they sit on it, displace those feelings into other things.

The young man they interviewed was the most interesting. Why are women scary? Again though, like the ladies, men have no difficulty in displacing sexual urges into productive endeavour, like hobbies.

If women are scary I assume that that is because they lack the socialisation that makes women less scary and human, and that that is why they are so into animation and probably why Japanese animation is so replete with unrealistic but scary females. What is then interesting is that you get young women wanting to be like those animated creations, because they feel empowered by them...it's Self-fulfilling. A generation too late for the creators mind you, the next generation though should be abundant in feisty young Japanese women far too impatient to stand on social convention to wait for the boys to ask them out, while the boys happily melt into submission. I presume at least.

I think that while the mice may experience such behaviours as a fatal decline in successful reproductions, in humans such pits and troughs only represent changes in social conventions related to mating that have to be adapted to too rapidly which can mean that transitional generations may collapse in a way that is rapidly recovered from subsequently.

On a slightly different note, I was thinking yesterday about how, unlike the mice, a child born into an abusive and neglectful household, even where that neglect may be cross-generational, can "rise" above that and "normalise". That faculty that humans have to break themselves and rebuild is kind of extraordinary, to the extent that we can pass that understanding onto our animals, and rebuild them in the same way when other humans have broken their spirit.

a reply to: Peeple

You monster! Shove a bunch of lemurs into cramped living quarters just to see what happens! Sick!!

/sarcasm

Actually, it is that reaction why nobody has tried to re-experiment Universe 25. That and what if the same thing happens anyway?!

a reply to: Anaana

"Channel to other hobbies" which probably explains the near fetish with 1950's America! Brain Setzer is god over there!

Humans can, and do, rise above hardships. That is what gives me hope. But we also seem to follow behavioral sinks as well which makes me want to go wash my hair. It ebbs and flows. And now I have some words to describe some of the behaviors I see in the real world.

And a way to quickly dismiss someone and they would take it as a compliment! Hehe.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Be we are not stopping breading or reproduction, aside from that i think its a perfect analogy to modern day society.

a reply to: andy06shake

With the population at 7.5 billion and climbing I guess we can always wait and see!

When faced with a blank piece of paper it is sometimes difficult to put something meaningful down onto it. The experiment provides hints and clues of where to look; it is a starting point of a conversation. The idea breeds more ideas. Then the blank piece of paper is no longer formidable!

Analogy is part of deduction. That is the path to wisdom (deduction, induction, and abduction).