2017 UK General Election RESULTS Thread

a reply to: crazyewok

I am not jealous.

I am just aware that there ARE people within that top fifteen who do NOT earn their money, merely gain it. I am also aware that the individuals to whom I am referring (as opposed to those who do not fall within the frame of reference, roughly approximating "heartless absorbers of unreasonable amounts of wealth relative to their efforts"), are NOT as hard working as the individuals who are having to work three jobs just to make rent on substandard accommodation, not because they made bad choices, but because they only HAD bad options in the first place, as a result of the unarguably impossible circumstances that many people find themselves in, despite having made the very best choices available to them at the time.

I also find it somewhat interesting that you use the example of doctors particularly, and teachers to make your point, because the only doctors who have spoken publicly about the politics involved, back Labour stances on how the NHS is to be funded, and that necessarily includes their tax strategy. They know that even if they have to get a little less, they will be working in better conditions, with more available doctors, nurses, beds and equipment, which will mean better outcomes for patients and staff alike, in the NHS and healthcare in this country more broadly. It will also reduce the burden caused by those who go home too early from surgery, for example, who end up costing more to treat long term, because their ailments are invariably made worse or heal slower, by early release from hospitals.

And another example you give is teachers. I know quite a few people in the field of education. Not a single one of them has turned to me and complained about Labour tax strategy. They are very pleased however, to have a voice in the Labour Party, which is staunchly behind their efforts to educate the young, wants better funded state education, wants to remove tuition fees from university life, wants to make education at all levels easier to access and cheaper to the consumer, while improving quality in key areas, like reducing class sizes, improving staffing levels, and so on.

And another thing, while we are at it. The Labour manifesto is not about throwing money at things. It is about targeted use of money to have the biggest over all beneficial impact to the country over time. A healthier, better educated population makes better choices, has more drive as well as having the intellectual resources necessary to get more done, and is not hampered nearly as much by whatever health problems they may have.

Further to that, a nation well supported at the bottom end, is far less fragile economically, than one where the only access to financial stability, is enjoyed by those who occupy a statistical minority at the very top of the food chain. I am not saying that everyone needs to be a millionaire, because surely, this is not the case. However, the difference between the top and the bottom of the food chain is far too great, artificially, not to mention unhelpfully so. Labour have a plan for that, which no one else seems to have.

And on the subject of throwing money at things, I find this argument the most telling. Conservative spending has seen MASSES of total waste over the course of their involvement with governance. In fact, their record on spending relative to debt management, has been UTTERLY appalling in every respect for decades. Labour have, on balance, been the better, more fiscally responsible of the two parties, and you can look the statistics up for yourself if you like. The unbiased research all points that way, but by all means, continue to bash the only route by which this country winds up as anything other than an economically arranged fascism, with everyone serfs, bar the un-elected masters of this nation, and the pontificating servants who represent them in Parliament.

a reply to: TrueBrit

TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX.

Long as you support high tax on succeful people the bigger the uphill battle.

That 15 % of the middle class is one of the biggest voting blocks. And they will mainy swing Tory so long as you want to tax the # out of them.

Now if you decided to target the 1% the bankers the CEO and the people who are the silver spoon parisites. THEN you would swing a good number of that 15% including me to labour.

You DONT NEED to tax the 15 % for you ideas.

Just enforcing current tax laws and closing loop holes would bring £16 Billion in! That would be enough money for Education, NHS and to reverse the cuts to disability.

Also there is a few billion in foriegn "aid" thats is not being used at all for aid but in vanity projects and to line the pockets of corrupt officals (I provided evididnce). Cut the Foriegn aid budget from £12 billion to 10 by removing the projects that dont help in food, clothing, vaccination and shelter.

There is no need to tax the 15% except out of hateful jelousy and envy.

Your enemy is the 1%.

a reply to: crazyewok

Nonsense.

First of all, there is a very good reason to tax the top fifteen percent, and that is that they are the only people getting to live rather than merely exist, so in return, they can put something back financially, into the state which supports their success. Its only fair, and to be quite frank, if you cannot live on whatever you have left after tax, having an initial paypacket in excess of eighty thousand pounds a year, then you have bigger problems than what the Chancellor is after from you this year.

And what is more, if you think that earning just twenty thousand pounds shy of a hundred thousand a year is middle class, you need a slap and a reality check mate. Middle class, means middle earners, and if you are in the top fifteen percent of earners, you are NOT a middle earner, you are in a very advantageous position, such that if you are acting wisely and in your best interests, the government taxing you will fail entirely to concern you, or your accountant in the least, unless you happen to be one of those who can only snort their poison of choice from extremely high class call girls belly buttons, in which case your problems are your own bucko.

I mean Jesus, what an imposition, right? There people are, making more money than they will ever be able to spend in one year unless they are living out the last half of Scarface every day of their lives, and someone asks them to stump up to support the foundational elements of the nation that provided the space for the business they are in, provided a customer base for their trade or skill, provided in many cases the work place involved as well? What a disgrace!

BULL! I dare any one of the people who want to complain about that, to come down to the real world for a couple of weeks, and witness it in all its glory, the people working like machines for student or apprentice pay, the people working three jobs to maintain crappy housing that they can barely afford with state help because mercenary property owners (many of them occupying the 50-80k earning bracket themselves) ask too much for their collapsing, low quality, low safety housing. I dare any one of those who wants to complain from a position of financial security, about how hard they have it. There is not a single high paid doctor or teacher who could survive a month working at Aldi, eating substandard food, keeping the heating off, and paying through the nose to live in a horrible, mold ridden apartment. They would go mental, or learn to shut their pathetic, utterly moronic whining about how much tax they are paying, if they knew what regular, superhuman poor folk do to get by.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: crazyewok

Nonsense.

First of all, there is a very good reason to tax the top fifteen percent, and that is that they are the only people getting to live rather than merely exist, so in return, they can put something back financially, into the state which supports their success. Its only fair, and to be quite frank, if you cannot live on whatever you have left after tax, having an initial paypacket in excess of eighty thousand pounds a year, then you have bigger problems than what the Chancellor is after from you this year.

Bull #.

As I said there is no need to tax the top 15%! You just need to enforce the current tax laws. That would bring in $16 billion at a low estimate! Enough to pay for schools and the NHS.

Why tax when you dont need to unless its to punish?

originally posted by: TrueBrit
And what is more, if you think that earning just twenty thousand pounds shy of a hundred thousand a year is middle class, you need a slap and a reality check mate. Middle class, means middle earners, and if you are in the top fifteen percent of earners, you are NOT a middle earner, you are in a very advantageous position, such that if you are acting wisely and in your best interests, the government taxing you will fail entirely to concern you, or your accountant in the least, unless you happen to be one of those who can only snort their poison of choice from extremely high class call girls belly buttons, in which case your problems are your own bucko.

Your totaly cluesless. Most in the £80k t0 150k are hard working people who dont snort coke and dont have private acountants or tax evade. Its the £150k and over you need to look at! THOSE are your enemy for # sake.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
I mean Jesus, what an imposition, right? There people are, making more money than they will ever be able to spend in one year unless they are living out the last half of Scarface every day of their lives, and someone asks them to stump up to support the foundational elements of the nation that provided the space for the business they are in, provided a customer base for their trade or skill, provided in many cases the work place involved as well? What a disgrace!

Again thats the 1%! Not the 15 % the 1%!

For # sake why do you socialist always lump the proffesionals, the highly skilled and the educated with the top 1%?

Happens all the #ing time. Russia, China, Cambodia! The ones being lined up to be shot where the doctors, the lawyers the owners of medium size businesses....the teachers......... All while the 1% used there vast wealth to run......

YOUR BEING PLAYED! The 1% want socilaists to hate and target the 15% of the upper middle class. Cause while you pour you jelousy and hatred at us the top 1% are safe.... and if things go south and there is a revolution? You will be tied up shooting doctors, teachers and intellectuals while the bankers and politicans escape....

originally posted by: TrueBrit
BULL! I dare any one of the people who want to complain about that, to come down to the real world for a couple of weeks, and witness it in all its glory, the people working like machines for student or apprentice pay, the people working three jobs to maintain crappy housing that they can barely afford with state help because mercenary property owners (many of them occupying the 50-80k earning bracket themselves) ask too much for their collapsing, low quality, low safety housing. I dare any one of those who wants to complain from a position of financial security, about how hard they have it. There is not a single high paid doctor or teacher who could survive a month working at Aldi, eating substandard food, keeping the heating off, and paying through the nose to live in a horrible, mold ridden apartment. They would go mental, or learn to shut their pathetic, utterly moronic whining about how much tax they are paying, if they knew what regular, superhuman poor folk do to get by.

And that not the fault of high earning professinals!

Thats the fault of goverment and the top 1% banker scum!

You can solve those issues out without attacking the 15%. As i keep repeating JUST ENFORCE CURRENT TAX LAWS!

a reply to: TrueBrit

For emphsis as you seem to ignore this point.

Tax avoidence loses this country at a low estimate £18 billion a year.

NHS needs a extra minimum £2 billion extra a year........

If you just enforced current tax laws you would have enough to put £8 billion a year extra into the NHS, 2 Billion into the police, £500 million into the schools (thats nearly triple what we need). 1 Billion into reverseing the ESA cuts AND giving extra to to the disabled and 7.5 billion left over for things like housing, burserys for free universitys places for needed courses, pay rised for nurses ect.

No need for more tax, just get the bloody money back thats stolen from the public purse!

I would love to know why corporations are allowed to choose just one country to pay their corporation tax in and not pay it in any other country. I heard it was some EU ruling, but I can't seem to find anything about it.

Does anyone know why corporations are allowed to do this?

originally posted by: 83Liberty


Does anyone know why corporations are allowed to do this?

Lobbying and bribes.......

Duh

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: 83Liberty


Does anyone know why corporations are allowed to do this?

Lobbying and bribes.......

Duh

To who? Which law states this? I'm assuming it's an international agreement?

Anyone got anything useful to say on the matter?

I agree with CrazyEwok, taxing the top 15% through income tax will only hurt the honest people.
Most people in the Top 15% don't pay much in income tax because they use shell companies and tax loopholes to pay very little in income tax.

The reason I know this is because for the last 20 years, I've been using those loopholes to pay the minimum in tax and NI.
They brought in IR35, that closed one loophole and they have now introduced Supervision, Direction or Control and so I now pay full NI & Income Tax.

Close the loopholes that the top earners use to avoid tax and you plug a very big hole in the countries budget.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
I agree with CrazyEwok, taxing the top 15% through income tax will only hurt the honest people.
Most people in the Top 15% don't pay much in income tax because they use shell companies and tax loopholes to pay very little in income tax.

The reason I know this is because for the last 20 years, I've been using those loopholes to pay the minimum in tax and NI.
They brought in IR35, that closed one loophole and they have now introduced Supervision, Direction or Control and so I now pay full NI & Income Tax.

Close the loopholes that the top earners use to avoid tax and you plug a very big hole in the countries budget.

Thats the thing.

Most of the 60k-150k people pay there 40% tax in full, money warned through honest hard work.

On the other hand the 1%, the CEO's banker, footballers and waste of space aristocrats dodge the tax man all already paying as little as 10% tax.....

Hikeing up tax just hits the honest 80k-150k bracket more while the 1% super rich wont pay a #ing penny more.

Close the tax loopholes! That is what will bring in the most money!

I don't know where these £60'000+ figures are coming from for the top 15%. A single person earning £43'000 puts you into the top 15%. If you are married and have children the amount you need to earn goes up.

I'm not married and my current wage puts me in the top 10%. I'm not in a fancy banking job and certainly don't have any slush funds in Switzerland. I have seen every rung on the money ladder since I started working.

Most people earning my wage in my experience are perfectly honest people who pay their taxes. I know I do.

a reply to: PaddyInf

No your filthy dirsty rotten CEO! All you ill gotten money made over £25k a year needs to be taxed at 100%!

How dare you not live in benfits or minimum wage!


I bet you own 10 sports cars, 15 mansions , 6 yachts and at least 2 jet planes!

And i am sure you masterminded the 2007 financial crash!


/sarc

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: PaddyInf

No your filthy dirsty rotten CEO! All you ill gotten money made over £25k a year needs to be taxed at 100%!

How dare you not live in benfits or minimum wage!


I bet you own 10 sports cars, 15 mansions , 6 yachts and at least 2 jet planes!

And i am sure you masterminded the 2007 financial crash!


/sarc

Shut up you poor disabled scrounger, all your free medicine and disability benefits need to be taken away!

How dare you depend on society to survive!

I bet you own a 20 pack of fags and a bottle of lambrini with my tax money!

I'm sure your disabled ass caused the crash in 2007

originally posted by: TrueBrit
First of all, there is a very good reason to tax the top fifteen percent, and that is that they are the only people getting to live rather than merely exist, so in return, they can put something back financially, into the state which supports their success.

While it's customary - almost traditional - to bark on about higher taxes on the wealthy, it's a bit unfair. People with higher earnings pay proportionately higher tax (income tax and NIC) than those on lower earnings. In fact, people on lower earnings receive more in benefits (in the UK) than they give in tax.

While I am not naive to think by closing loopholes and abuse we could extract more tax from the better off, we can do so for the worse off too. Is there anything really wrong with me paying for my new patio in cash as a way to save on the VAT? Well, yes there is and the avoidance of VAT is a massive problem - I would suggest more prevalent - in the lower paid.

Anyhow, here's a few links to prove my point. The last one is key to me as it shows the fact that people who earn more basically keep the country afloat.

4. Half of households in the UK receive more in benefits than they paid in taxes

Source ONS

Nearly half of Britons pay no income tax as burden on rich increases

Source Telegrapgh

This chart from the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows that about 90% of income tax is paid by the 50% of taxpayers with the highest incomes, while more than a quarter is paid by the richest 1%.

Source BBC

a reply to: paraphi

While I actually agree with you about not raising taxes the figures in your links are slightly misleading.

The half of households receive more benefit than they pay in taxes is only arrived at by including state pensions as a benefit. So not working age group.

The half pay no income tax is including students, unemployed etc and also does not include NI contributions which is income tax in all but name.

The fact that the bulk of income tax is paid by the top earners is true but is a symptom of excessive income inequality. It illustrates why we need progressive taxation, not an argument against it.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: crazyewok

Nonsense.

First of all, there is a very good reason to tax the top fifteen percent, and that is that they are the only people getting to live rather than merely exist, so in return, they can put something back financially, into the state which supports their success. Its only fair, and to be quite frank, if you cannot live on whatever you have left after tax, having an initial paypacket in excess of eighty thousand pounds a year, then you have bigger problems than what the Chancellor is after from you this year.

Not wanting to sound harsh, but why should I pay more than I already do? I'm already paying more in tax than some people make in wages. I make what I do as a result of decades of graft and making sacrifices when needed. My choices and work ethic have led to my current pay. I didn't have any different opportunities than my peers growing up. Why should I pay more for working harder?

BULL! I dare any one of the people who want to complain about that, to come down to the real world for a couple of weeks, and witness it in all its glory, the people working like machines for student or apprentice pay, the people working three jobs to maintain crappy housing that they can barely afford with state help because mercenary property owners (many of them occupying the 50-80k earning bracket themselves) ask too much for their collapsing, low quality, low safety housing. I dare any one of those who wants to complain from a position of financial security, about how hard they have it. There is not a single high paid doctor or teacher who could survive a month working at Aldi, eating substandard food, keeping the heating off, and paying through the nose to live in a horrible, mold ridden apartment. They would go mental, or learn to shut their pathetic, utterly moronic whining about how much tax they are paying, if they knew what regular, superhuman poor folk do to get by.

You're making a lot of assumptions. You seem to imply that successful people started off that way.

Guess what? I started off in a 1 bedroom flat in Belfast, working 2 jobs while doing my nursing degree. I was knocking out 40 hours work on top of my clinical placement time and studies to get by. I've been there. Since then I have knocked my pan in, grasped every opportunity that presented itself or made my own opportunities. I was handed nothing on a plate. Because of this I now live a comfortable life and make no appologies for it. I can look back at where I started with a clear conscience and say I earned it.

Many of us earn every penny we get. Shouting down successful people who have gotten to where they are through hard work and making the right choices just comes across as the politics of envy.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
While I actually agree with you about not raising taxes the figures in your links are slightly misleading.

I am not attempting to mislead. The devil is in the detail and the statistics. The point I was trying to make is that the more well off 1%, 15%, 25%, (or whatever) portion of the population, pay their taxes and as a proportion of their income and therefore pay more as a proportion of the tax paying population.

The endless rant that these people should pay more ignores the fact that they already pay more.

a reply to: PaddyInf

What it comes across as from your perspective is one thing. What it actually is as another, and the rather more important point. Furthermore, I very much doubt you would have a problem with paying more, if your doing so actually meant that your field of operation was a far more pleasant and effective one to be in, lacking the horror story waiting times, the overworked workforce, and with the cap on public sector pay being eliminated if Corbyn gets his way, probably being better rewarded on the whole for your time than you are currently, assuming you are still using your training in your mode of employment.

And I fail to see why your one voice of dissent is meant to be considered as equal in weight to the overwhelming support for Corbyn's Labour policies, from people working the front lines of medicine up and down this country, people who stand to pay more themselves, but want to because they want the NHS to be perfected, not left to decline and slide into private hands by degrees, which by the way, will solve nothing and create far more problems to boot.

a reply to: crazyewok

You might want to adjust for the legal costs of enforcing tax law on the companies who have been controlling our country and our leadership for the last thirty years. These are rich companies with lawyers in such number and of such potency that they are equivalent to tactical nuclear weapons, in terms of how effective they can be if correctly deployed.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I'm not nursing any more, and haven't for a long time. Much of my family still work for the NHS though, as does my partner.

It's not my one voice. It is the same for many in the UK. The difference is that those who make their money are less vocal about it than those who don't.

My point is that I (and many others) cannot see the logic behind taking ever increasing percentages of someone's hard earned money just because some people earn less. My story is the same as that of many in the UK that the left wing parties want to punish for doing well.

Your logic seems to be;

Person works hard.
Person earns lots of money for hard work.
Government takes lots of person's money and gives to others because they don't earn as much.

Why is it wrong that a person who has grafted and is rewarded for it can reap the benefits of their life choices and work ethic?

The people who do earn the most on the UK already contribute most of the tax money yet gain the least from it. For example higher earners are not entitled to any government funded subsidies (which is only logical and I totally agree with), but still pay most of the money that is used to pay for them.

The amount that I pay in tax and NI each month is comfortably in 4 figures. I don't begrudge paying this at all, it is my responsibility. What I do begrudge is being told that I am greedy and should pay even more to accommodate those who are less successful.

If you earn it, you should be entitled to pay reasonable taxes and use the rest as you chose.