The Mystery Pillars of New Mexico

a reply to: gortex

I wasn't responding to any unintended aspersions,
I simply brought up the inconsistencies in the story of the stone's provenance, because I dont think its a fake, and there are good reasons for the " finder" to change their story.
The date of find is significant, as I believe there might have been a change in the law regarding finds of this nature on public lands, some time around then, not sure but I think there was.
It is likely it came from public land, so removing it was a huge no no, thems federal charges and stuff.
So as long as it was a local curiosity, it was all good, but when Mr. Serna started poking around, he kicked open a meat bee's nest of regulations.
Removing an artifact from public property, disturbing a grave yard/burial ground, depending on when it was found, violations of the NAGRA are also likely.
So, now it comes from private property adjacent or in the area.
And like I said the local USFS people are just that, locals, they aren't going cause a bunch of trouble trying to get to the bottom of it, and since it is a burial ground it remains undisturbed unless absoluetly needed.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: punkinworks10

I agree with Astyanax , it looks fairly modern and for me too clean to be of any great age.
(snip)
That in itself is not an indication of anything but I think the disinterest of local archaeologists probably is.
The standing stone needs to be looked at by an expert to ascertain the depth at which it is buried and if there are any finds around its base to give a clue to its age.

I feel the 80s is probably about right looking at the pictures.

I agree with you that it's made by someone of Western/European culture and strongly invested in the Christian faith. I agree that it is fairly new, though I'd go with 1800's. That said, it does remind me of grave markers and site markers I've seen in Europe by pre-literate cultures.

I think the symbols are inspirational... to the person who created them. So interpreting meaning (beyond what the person was inspired to create) is difficult. It could mark a grave YARD (not necessarily a grave but a burial area) or simply a place where one or more Christians who had no church (or found it difficult to get to a church because of distance) felt was holy or sacred for them.

Morningglory,
That is a fantastic contribution, thank you.
I was thinking 1840's-50's myself, some of the imagery was popular among various denomonations.
I would say your scenario is the now my fave.
I will have to learn more of these Los Hermanos.

The appearance of the inplace stone is consistant with it being buried by snow, up to am average point, it gets cleaner the farther down ypu look from the lichen at the crest, then being exposed for the summer.

Jesuits.

The simple carvings are more interesting, as they were made in haste, and mark locations of buried treasure as the civilized thieves fled Mexico.

These were coming in era pillars, not being chased out pillars.

a reply to: punkinworks10

I'm so glad you liked my post. I love Colorado/the southwest and was pleasantly surprised to see your thread.

I'm still discovering my family's history. When my dad told me about family members who were Penitente, I assumed it was just another religion but it was so much more. It's hard imagining a people so maligned they were denied religion by those on a mission to spread it.

The Penitente followed the "Stations of the Cross." It's possible the pillar is a station or marker for the pilgrimage. The fact it was found in such a remote location is very Penitente-esque. They practiced self-flagellation during pilgrimages so privacy was important. The problem with remote locations, without proper markers it's easy to get lost.

The Penitente church was a safe haven for members when traveling or if they needed help. It's possible the pillar marked the path/conveyed the location of churches/cemeteries etc. and or pilgrimage routes.

The reason I feel the pillar may be from the 1800's is based on what I read at the link

The Penitente Brotherhood

After the secularization of New Mexico's Franciscan missions (1830-1850), Los Hermanos had no priests and no access to the sacraments. In this time they evolved and elaborated their own rites and sacred pathways.

From what I read without priests to lead them, the congregation joined together in a circle for services. For them community was everything. Not sure of their numbers, Moradas are dotted throughout the region so I imagine there were quite a few.