Challenge for Christians

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
by the MO (Modus Operandus) we can see by all the "words" and "claims" used by Disturbinatti in the last two post alone, this is in fact Gnosisifaith from January 2016 who has had over 70 different user account names and having been banned every time.

Yes af course it is.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

a reply to: ChesterJohn Whoever you are whatever your problem is... It is not my fault you can't explain the doctrines of Christianity. Or yours. It doesn't match the teachings of Jesus pbuh, doesn't make sense regarding Paul and his and the ones in his name's epistles are rambling nonsense. edit on 27-5-2017 by Disturbinatti because: (no reason given)

Whoever you are whatever your problem is...
It is not my fault you can't explain the doctrines of Islam. Muhammad doesn't match the teachings of Jesus pbuh or the blessed Apostle Paul pbuh or any of the blessed Apostles of Christianity pbuh.

The Christian book of Jesus pbuh and Paul pbuh and all of the apostles and disciples of Jesus pbuh shows that you are ashamed of the Quran. The Quran, which is false and full of errors, cannot be used as it cannot tell us the truth. That is why the faith of Islam consists of ignorant people who cannot think properly and must rely upon the great book of the Christians pbuh to tell the truth. Otherwise Muslims would drink from the well of truth which is the great book of the Christians and burn their cursed book of lies which teach murder. Muhammad died in not believing the blessed Apostle Paul pbuh nor the deaths of the Saints of Christianity pbuh and has met his death in torment forever. I hope you do not make that same error.

a reply to: kelbtalfenek

I'm an atheist but can I answer??? pleaassseeee? I love mythology. This is all in reference to the old covenant (the 10 commandments) and the new law (blood of the lamb.) The old covenant was very strict and almost impossible to follow. The new covenant is supposed to eliminate the need for the old covenant.

I have to laugh at this because it is the atheist that gets it right because he is not emotional or dogmatic about it.

Well done, and a star for you.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Assalaamu alaikum Brother Disturbinatti,

I love to discuss and debate world religion, but you are doing so in an effort to propagate Islam. Why are you attacking the Christian religion without acknowledging the errors of Islam and the Qur'an? Jesus taught:

Matthew 7:1-5

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

As you seek to discredit Christianity, please be aware that Islam and the Qur'an is not free from error.

Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

1. All ancient Qur'an manuscripts are noticeably different than today's Qur'an. Additions, omissions, different word tenses, and different sentence arrangement. The Qur'an, as it is today, does not exist in any of the ancient Qur'anic manuscripts.

2. There are many documented cases of left out and missing verses of the Qur'an that are mentioned in the ahadith.

3. Two of Muhammad's most trusted Qur'an authorities were Abdullah ibn Mas’ud and Ubay ibn Ka’b. Their Qur'ans drastically differ from the standardized Qur'an of Caliph Uthman.

4. Caliph Uthman suppressed and annihilated all of the various ahrufs (dialects) ordained by Muhammad in favor of propagating only the dialect of the Quraysh.

5. All of the modern Qira’at (recitations) differ from each other on grammatical points.

6. And finally, how can Islam be a religion of peace when Muhammad launched preemptive and unprovoked ethnic genocide against the Jews of Arabia?
Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion" (2:256)

Muhammad began as a righteous man of peace and pacifism in Mecca, then became corrupted by power and wealth in Medina; becoming a man of intolerance and violence; a warlord.


It is your holy month of Ramadan. It is advised to refrain from arguments during the holy month. As a Brother to you and all of mankind, may I suggest that you worry about the planks in the eye of your own religion before pointing out the splinters in the eyes of other religions. Become a good Muslim by following its righteous ideals, and extend Brotherhood to those of different beliefs by respecting their choices. Spend the holy month in reflection, contemplation, and practice of Islam, rather than focusing on fighting other religions.

May Peace be upon you, and may you have a blessed Ramadan.

Assalaamu alaikum, Ramadan Mubarak.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: DISRAELI

I think the point of the thread is to question how Jesus became cursed when he is supposedly God. How can God be cursed and how is accepting a curse a good thing? Also if we accept Jesus then does that mean we have accepted a curse?

"When He is supposedly God"...Yeshua/Jesus was God in flesh! ALL mankind had a sin debt
and Yeshua/Jesus paid our sin debt.

“The Law Has Become Our Tutor”

HOW many children appreciate the value of rules and discipline? Not many. For them, restrictions are tiresome. Those with the responsibility of helping young ones, however, know that appropriate oversight is absolutely necessary. And as the years pass, most youngsters will probably come to appreciate the value of the guidance received. The apostle Paul used the image of a man who protected children to illustrate an aspect of the developing relationship between Jehovah God and his people.

Some first-century Christians in the Roman province of Galatia insisted that God favored only those who obeyed the Law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The apostle Paul knew this to be false, for God gave holy spirit to some who had never observed Jewish law. (Acts 15:12) So Paul corrected the wrong idea by means of an illustration. In a letter to the Galatian Christians, he wrote: “The Law has become our tutor leading to Christ.” (Galatians 3:24) The figure of a tutor, says one scholar, has “an ancient and rich background.” Understanding this background clarifies the point that the apostle Paul was making.

The Tutor and His Responsibilities

Tutors were widely used in well-to-do Greek, Roman, and perhaps even Jewish households to supervise the activities of children from infancy to puberty. The tutor was generally a trusted slave, often aged, who acted as an attendant to ensure a child’s safety and to see to it that the father’s wishes for the child were respected.
...
Rather than giving formal scholastic instruction, the tutor merely administered the father’s directives in a custodial fashion. He did, however, give indirect instruction through supervision and discipline. This included inculcating decorum, imparting rebukes, and even inflicting physical punishment for misconduct. The mother and father, of course, were the child’s primary educators. Yet, as the boy grew, his tutor taught him that he should have good posture when he walked in the streets, that he should wear his cloak, sit, and eat properly, and that he should rise for his elders, love his parents, and so on.
...
The constant presence of tutors earned them a reputation as oppressive guards and harsh disciplinarians, the source of an endless flow of petty, tiresome, and ineffective accusations. Even so, the tutor provided protection, both moral and physical.
...
Immorality was rife in the Hellenistic world. Children, especially boys, needed protection from sexual molestation. Tutors would thus attend the child’s lessons, since many schoolteachers could not be trusted. Greek orator Libanius of the fourth century C.E. went so far as to say that tutors had to act as “guards of the blossoming youth,” to “drive out the undesirable lovers, thrusting them away and keeping them out, not allowing them to fraternize with the boys.” Many tutors earned the respect of those whom they protected.
...
The Law as a Tutor

Why did the apostle Paul compare the Mosaic Law to a tutor? What makes this illustration particularly appropriate?

The first aspect is the protective nature of the Law. Paul explained that the Jews were “guarded under law.” It was as though they were in the protective custody of a tutor. (Galatians 3:23) The Law influenced every aspect of their life. It bridled their lustful passions and their fleshly desires. It supervised their conduct and continually rebuked them for their shortcomings, making each Israelite aware of his own imperfections.

The Law was also a protection from corrupting influences, such as the degraded moral and religious practices of the nations that surrounded Israel. God’s prohibition on intermarriage with pagans, for example, was essential to the spiritual well-being of the nation as a whole. (Deuteronomy 7:3, 4) Such statutes preserved the spiritual purity of God’s people and prepared them to be able to recognize the Messiah. These were loving provisions indeed. Moses reminded his fellow Israelites: “Just as a man corrects his son, Jehovah your God was correcting you.”—Deuteronomy 8:5.

An essential element of the apostle Paul’s illustration, however, was the temporary nature of a tutor’s authority. When the child reached the age of maturity, he was no longer under his tutor’s control. The Greek historian Xenophon (431-352 B.C.E.) wrote: “When a boy ceases to be a child, and begins to be a lad, others release him from his [tutor] and from his [teacher]; he is then no longer under them, but is allowed to go his own way.”

It was the same with the authority of the Law of Moses. Its function was temporary—“to make transgressions manifest, until the seed [Jesus Christ] should arrive.” The apostle Paul explained that for the Jews, the Law was a “tutor leading to Christ.” In order for Paul’s Jewish contemporaries to enjoy God’s favor, they had to recognize Jesus’ role in God’s purpose. Once they did so, the function of the tutor was fulfilled.—Galatians 3:19, 24, 25.

The Law that God gave to the Israelites was perfect. It fully achieved the purposes for which God established it—to protect his people and to make them aware of his high standards. (Romans 7:7-14) The Law was a good tutor. For some who lived under its protection, however, its requirements might have seemed burdensome. Hence, Paul could write that when God’s appointed time arrived, “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law.” The Law was a “curse” only in the sense that it subjected imperfect Jews to standards they could not completely measure up to. It called for the scrupulous observance of rituals. Once a Jew accepted the superior provision made possible by Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, adherence to the tutor’s restrictions was no longer necessary.—Galatians 3:13; 4:9, 10.

Paul’s focus, then, in likening the Law of Moses to a tutor was to emphasize its custodial function and its temporary nature. Jehovah’s favor is gained, not by obedience to that Law, but by recognizing Jesus and exercising faith in him.—Galatians 2:16; 3:11.

John 3:36

36 The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

These 2 words used here for "exercises faith" and "disobeys" are antonyms in the Greek (opposites). One is the opposite of the other.

Evidence for genuine conviction was also involved in the case of those who came to or who were brought to Jesus to be healed. Even if not eyewitnesses personally, they at least had heard about Jesus’ powerful works. Then, on the basis of what they saw or heard, they concluded that Jesus could heal them also. Moreover, they were acquainted with God’s Word and thus were familiar with the miracles performed by the prophets in times past. Upon hearing Jesus, some concluded that he was “The Prophet,” and others that he was “the Christ.” In view of this, it was most fitting for Jesus on occasion to say to those who were healed, “Your faith has made you well.” Had those persons not exercised faith in Jesus, they would not have approached him in the first place and, therefore, would not have received healing for themselves.—Joh 7:40, 41; Mt 9:22; Lu 17:19.

Source: Faith: Insight, Volume 1

Regarding the bolded part in my previous comment:

The Law was a good tutor. For some who lived under its protection, however, its requirements might have seemed burdensome. Hence, Paul could write that when God’s appointed time arrived, “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law.” The Law was a “curse” only in the sense that it subjected imperfect Jews to standards they could not completely measure up to. It called for the scrupulous observance of rituals. Once a Jew accepted the superior provision made possible by Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, adherence to the tutor’s restrictions was no longer necessary.—Galatians 3:13; 4:9, 10.

Remember the 1st + (reference) for Galatians 3:10-14 from the book of Acts.

So why are you now making a test of God by imposing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? (Acts 15:10)

Here's the context...(bolding the important bits)

5 But some of those of the sect of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and command them to observe the Law of Moses.”

6 So the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter. 7 After much intense discussion had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, you well know that from early days God made the choice among you that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 So why are you now making a test of God by imposing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we have faith that we are saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way that they are.”

12 At that the entire group became silent, and they began to listen to Barʹna·bas and Paul relate the many signs and wonders that God had done through them among the nations. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things+, 18 known from of old.’+

1st +

Amos 9:11, 12

11 ‘In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen,

I will repair the breaches,

And I will restore its ruins;

I will rebuild it as in the days of long ago,

12 So that they may take possession of what is remaining of Eʹdom,

And all the nations on whom my name has been called,’ declares Jehovah, who is doing this.

That's why I bolded "as it is written" (that's the phrase used in the Greek Scriptures when referrinng to an important teaching or prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures).

2nd +

Isaiah 45:21

21 Make your report, present your case.

Let them consult together in unity.

Who foretold this long ago

And declared it from times past?

Is it not I, Jehovah?

There is no other God but me;

A righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me.

Isaiah chapter 45 entirely (a message from Jehovah to all mankind):

I AM JEHOVAH, and there is no one else. ♫

Oh, and regarding the phrase "...a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing" from Acts 15, see the verse in my first comment in this thread referenced right under it why that is the case.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Gnosisisfaith, I gave up on explaining anything to you with scriptures because you don't accept scriptures as truth.

a reply to: mamabeth

It was his human part not his divine part that became the curse so he could ransom us from the debt of sin.

a reply to: kelbtalfenek

Israel was given more than just 10 commandments those were just the base, there are over 100 spiritual, and over 200 ritualistic rules they are to follow as well. Some scholars (I hate to use that term) say as many as 10,000 Laws, Ordinances, Commandments, Precepts, Statutes, Testimonies, Judgements, Ways, Instructions and Words the Lord gave to them to follow. BTW all ten terms I used in the last sentence are all found in the AV Bible in reference to the scriptures.

I hate to say it because I don't care much for Paul...

At least he even didn't say "Jesus is God."

Although tell his cult following that and you will get some of the funniest responses as they desperately try to prove what they always just assumed was so.

But Jesus (p) the Messiah still wasn't "cursed for" or at all.... "our sake.''

Or anyone's.

You own your own sins. Paul was insane and the real Simon Magus. Literally. Marcion was a Simonian and interpolating liar.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: the2ofusr1


Jesus pbuh kept it.

He is someone.

Doesn't make sense or make the Law a curse.

It's free will, not the Law, that causes the transgression of the Law.

Curse has nothing to do with it.

You are accusing God of making a Law that was impossible to obey?

Quite an accusation.

Seems a little odd that the only person who passed the test happens to be the progeny of the person who made the test. And then said progeny sets the curve for the rest of humanity. Stinks of a rigged game.

a reply to: TzarChasm


If that was meant to make sense you are superior in speech than I because who knows what you are talking about is a mystery to me.

I stated logically sound observations, let me make another.

You are not a fan of my logical observations.

Can not refute as they are logical and true in the context of the Bible.

Resort to odd rambling with an accusatory tone to your wording and words.

Think I am going to understand what your problem is.

And finally you have nothing but those ramblings, your inability to refute me is the real issue.

Or you agree with me and I can't tell because I don't understand who is the progeny or progenitor or why you used the word in the first place.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: TzarChasm


If that was meant to make sense you are superior in speech than I because who knows what you are talking about is a mystery to me.

I stated logically sound observations, let me make another.

You are not a fan of my logical observations.

Can not refute as they are logical and true in the context of the Bible.

Resort to odd rambling with an accusatory tone to your wording and words.

Think I am going to understand what your problem is.

And finally you have nothing but those ramblings, your inability to refute me is the real issue.

Or you agree with me and I can't tell because I don't understand who is the progeny or progenitor or why you used the word in the first place.

progeny means child, as in child of god. more specifically son.

i just feel like it is disingenuous to make a sacrifice to yourself using your own flesh as a consequence of your own creation displeasing you. thats like taxing yourself a kings ransom because the economy you designed went belly up in the water, then forcing citizens who had no part in its design to fill the hole to avoid your wrath. extorting the innocent to cover a rich idiots major screwup and blaming the monkeys at the bottom of the ladder for not being smart enough to dodge your insecurities. thats a stupid play for someone who can literally rewrite reality and give themselves a second chance without punishing the rest of the world for it. but no, that would mean they have to admit they made a big fat oopsie and maybe they arent as perfect as they lead on.

either way we all have our opinions. but thats my challenge to the abrahamic fellowship at large. as long as we are on the topic of challenges anyway.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I know what it means I used 2 forms, you 1.

You are not very observant.

Or you think telling me the definition of a word I obviously know how to use in different forms so know what it means as most people would notice is clever as a deception tactic.

It's not. It makes you look like you think I asked for a definition, I definitely didn't so you didn't need your Wiktionary.

And you look foolish.

a reply to: TzarChasm


It was WHY you used it that was my actual inquiry.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: TzarChasm

I know what it means I used 2 forms, you 1.

You are not very observant.

Or you think telling me the definition of a word I obviously know how to use in different forms so know what it means as most people would notice is clever as a deception tactic.

It's not. It makes you look like you think I asked for a definition, I definitely didn't so you didn't need your Wiktionary.

And you look foolish.

it appears to be you who is rambling and not saying anything useful.

Not like I really care too much but I also asked who is the progeny, then I asked, because a progeny needs a progenitor, who that was too.

I didn't need a definition.

And I don't need to know what you are talking.

It's got nothing to do with me or the topic.

Because people who can't discuss things and be right at the same time but don't feel like learning much always go on the attack when proven wrong or disagreed with without the ability to refute factually.

I am laughing btw

a reply to: Disturbinatti

you havent addressed anything i posted except for my use of the word progeny.

Acher.