Challenge for Christians

a reply to: DISRAELI

I was intending to answer, and have answered, this part of the opening post;

Indeed.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I think your problem is that you are trying to make sense of a nonsensical book. God is not real and stupid men wrote the bible. There. Problem solved.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

I'm an atheist but can I answer??? pleaassseeee? I love mythology.

This is all in reference to the old covenant (the 10 commandments) and the new law (blood of the lamb.)

The old covenant was very strict and almost impossible to follow. The new covenant is supposed to eliminate the need for the old covenant.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

That is my first challenge, explain how it can be imagined the Law of God is a curse, how do you justify such nonsense?

The laws of God are not a curse and are forever of the Father, The laws of God were first instituted to Adam and then to Noah and then to Moses and are forever of God. But no man has ever been justified by the laws of God. Man is justified only by faith and the scriptures tell us that the law is only the school master till faith is instilled.

Galatians 3:24-25
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And how can this be that Jesus redeemed us and gave us justification when the law could not bring justification?

John 3:15-18
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You need to read thought in its entirety and not a verse or a partial verse. Twisting words is not the answer for truth. It appears to me that your purpose in this and some other threads is to deny the deity of Jesus by a convoluted mess of other opinions.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

3:19 The Law was promulgated (ordained) by angels.

Galatians 3:18-20
(18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(20) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Abraham had only the promise of justification and by faith he was justified. But not by a covenant of laws ordained by angels but by the Most high El in whose hand the angels served the law. Only till the Christ Jesus would justify men by faith and in love will write the laws in their hearts. Nevertheless the laws do not vanish but become a portion of love which is instilled in men.

Galatians 3:10-14 (NW)

10 All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.”+ 11 Moreover, it is evident that by law no one is declared righteous with God,+ because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.”+ 12 Now the Law is not based on faith. Rather, “anyone who does these things will live by means of them.”+ 13 Christ purchased us,+ releasing us+ from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”+ 14 This was so that the blessing of Abraham would come to the nations by means of Christ Jesus,+ so that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.

1st + (reference):

Deuteronomy 27:26
26 “‘Cursed is the one who will not uphold the words of this Law by carrying them out.’ (And all the people will say, ‘Amen!’)
Acts 15:10
10 So why are you now making a test of God by imposing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing?
James 2:10
10 For if anyone obeys all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against all of it.

2nd +

Galatians 2:15, 16
15 We who are Jews by birth, and not sinners from the nations, 16 recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.

3rd +

Habakkuk 2:4
4 Look at the one who is proud; He is not upright within himself. But the righteous one will live by his faithfulness.
Romans 1:17
17 For in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by faith and for faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one will live by reason of faith.”
Hebrews 10:38
38 “But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,” and “if he shrinks back, I have no pleasure in him.”

4th +

Leviticus 18:5
5 You must keep my statutes and my judicial decisions; anyone who does so will live by means of them. I am Jehovah.
Deuteronomy 30:16
16 If you listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you today, by loving Jehovah your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will live and multiply, and Jehovah your God will bless you in the land you are going to possess.
Romans 10:5
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the Law: “The man who does these things will live by means of them.”

5th +

1 Corinthians 7:23
23 You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men.

6th

Hebrews 9:15
15 That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
Matthew 26:27, 28
27 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

7th +

Deuteronomy 21:23
22 “If a man commits a sin deserving the sentence of death and he has been put to death+ and you have hung him on a stake, 23 his dead body should not remain all night on the stake. Instead, you should be sure to bury him on that day, because the one hung up is something accursed of God, and you should not defile your land that Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Acts 5:30
30 The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake.

8th

Ephesians 2:15, 16
15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.

Law: Insight, Volume 2

“1. The principles and regulations emanating from a government and applicable to a people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision. 2. Any written or positive rule, or collection of rules, prescribed under the authority of the state or nation.” (The American College Dictionary, edited by C. L. Barnhart, 1966) “A divine commandment or a revelation of the will of God . . . the whole body of God’s commandments or revelations: the will of God . . . : a rule of right living or good conduct esp[ecially] when conceived as having the sanction of God’s will, of conscience or the moral nature, or of natural justice.”—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1981.

The word “law,” in the Hebrew Scriptures, is translated primarily from the Hebrew word toh·rahʹ, related to the verb ya·rahʹ, meaning “direct, teach, instruct.” In some cases it is translated from the Aramaic term dath. (Da 6:5, 8, 15) Other words translated in the King James Version as “law” are mish·patʹ (judicial decision, judgment), and mits·wahʹ (commandment). In the Greek Scriptures the word noʹmos, from the verb neʹmo (deal out, distribute), is translated “law.”

Jehovah God is designated as the Source of law, the Supreme Lawgiver (Isa 33:22), the Sovereign, delegating authority (Ps 73:28; Jer 50:25; Lu 2:29; Ac 4:24; Re 6:10), without whose permission or allowance no authority can be exercised. (Ro 13:1; Da 4:35; Ac 17:24-31) His throne is established on righteousness and judgment. (Ps 97:1, 2) The stated will of God becomes law to his creatures.—See LEGAL CASE.

Law to Angels. ...

Law of Divine Creation. ...

Law to Adam. ...

Laws to Noah; Patriarchal Law. ...

Marriage and birthright. ...

Morals. ...

Property. ...

Custody. ...

Slavery. ..

Law of God to Israel—The Law of Moses. ..

Law of Conscience. ..

“Law of the Christ.” Paul wrote: “Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.” (Ga 6:2) While the Law covenant was terminated at Pentecost, 33 C.E. (“since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law”; Heb 7:12), Christians come “under law toward Christ.” (1Co 9:21) This law is called “the perfect law that belongs to freedom,” “the law of a free people,” “the law of faith.” (Jas 1:25; 2:12; Ro 3:27) Such a new law had been foretold by God through the prophet Jeremiah when he spoke of a new covenant and the writing of his law on the hearts of his people.—Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:6-13.

Like Moses, the mediator of the Law covenant, Jesus Christ is Mediator of the new covenant. Moses wrote the Law in code form, but Jesus did not personally put a law down in writing. He talked and put his law into the minds and hearts of his disciples. Neither did his disciples set down laws in the form of a code for Christians, classifying the laws into categories and subheadings. Nonetheless, the Christian Greek Scriptures are full of laws, commands, and decrees that the Christian is bound to observe.—Re 14:12; 1Jo 5:2, 3; 4:21; 3:22-24; 2Jo 4-6; Joh 13:34, 35; 14:15; 15:14.
..

Continues from last comment (I'm sorry it's more than 3 paragraphs but this should not be looked at or discussed superficially, a superficial view won't do here, the understanding heart searches out knowledge and is not satisfied with a mere superficial view).

...Jesus gave instruction to his disciples to preach the ‘good news of the kingdom.’ His command is found at Matthew 10:1-42; Luke 9:1-6; 10:1-12. At Matthew 28:18-20 a new command was given to Jesus’ disciples to go, not to the Jews only, but to all nations, to make disciples and baptize them with a new baptism, “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” Thus, with divine authorization Jesus taught and issued commands while on earth (Ac 1:1, 2) as well as after his ascension. (Ac 9:5, 6; Re 1:1-3) The entire book of Revelation consists of prophecies, commands, admonition, and instruction to the Christian congregation.

The “law of the Christ” covers the whole course and scope of the Christian’s life and work. By the help of God’s spirit the Christian can follow the commands in order to be judged favorably by that law, for it is “the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus.”—Ro 8:2, 4.

“Law of God.” The apostle Paul speaks of the Christian’s fight as influenced by two factors, “the law of God,” or “the law of that spirit which gives life” on one side and “sin’s law,” or “the law of sin and of death,” on the other. Paul describes the conflict, saying that fallen flesh infected with sin is enslaved to “sin’s law.” “The minding of the flesh means death,” but “God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” With the help of God’s spirit the Christian can win the fight—by exercising faith in Christ, putting to death the practices of the body, and living according to the spirit’s direction—and can gain life.—Ro 7:21–8:13.

Law of Sin and Death. The apostle Paul argues that, because of the sin of mankind’s father Adam, “death ruled as king” from Adam to the time of Moses (when the Law was given) and that the Law made transgressions manifest, making men chargeable with sin. (Ro 5:12-14; Ga 3:19) This rule, or law of sin, working in imperfect flesh exercises power over it, making it incline toward violation of God’s law. (Ro 7:23; Ge 8:21) Sin causes death. (Ro 6:23; 1Co 15:56) The law of Moses could not overcome the rule of kings sin and death, but freedom and victory come by means of the undeserved kindness of God through Jesus Christ.—Ro 5:20, 21; 6:14; 7:8, 9, 24, 25.

“Law of Faith.” The “law of faith” is contrasted with “that of works.” Man cannot attain to righteousness by his own works or those of the Law of Moses, as though earning righteousness as pay for works, but righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ. (Ro 3:27, 28; 4:4, 5; 9:30-32) James says, however, that such faith will be accompanied by works that result from one’s faith and are in harmony with it.—Jas 2:17-26.

Law of Husband. ...

“Kingly Law.” ...

SOME FEATURES OF THE LAW COVENANT

THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

Jehovah God is the Supreme Sovereign (Ex 19:5; 1Sa 12:12; Isa 33:22)

King to sit on “Jehovah’s throne,” representing Him (1Ch 29:23; De 17:14, 15)

Other officers (chieftains of tribes; chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens) were selected on the basis of their fear of God, as well as their trustworthiness and incorruptibility (Ex 18:21, 25; Nu 1:44)

Respect was due to all who exercised God-given authority: officers, priests, judges, parents (Ex 20:12; 22:28; De 17:8-13)

RELIGIOUS OBLIGATIONS

(These were summed up in the greatest commandment in the Law—to love Jehovah with one’s whole heart, mind, soul, and strength; De 6:5; 10:12; Mr 12:30)

Worship was to go only to Jehovah (Ex 20:3; 22:20; De 5:7)

Love should be a powerful motivating factor in one’s relationship with God (De 6:5, 6; 10:12; 30:16)

All were to fear God so as not to disobey him (Ex 20:20; De 5:29)

God’s name was not to be taken up in a worthless way (Ex 20:7; De 5:11)

They could approach him only in the way he approved (Nu 3:10; Le 10:1-3; 16:1)

...

songs 70-85 are all related to this, I'll share 2 more of the key ones:

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: dfnj2015

You could have just as many transgressions with fewer laws. I did the math

We run into statue laws such as with the Motor Vehicle Act ...If we break any of the statute laws we can be punished under the law . Now go remove these laws and see how many can be broken . The commandments are considered laws and the first commandment is to love God with all your heart and mind and soul . There is also the law not to covet . How would it be possible to figure out not to covet ?

I don't believe is the BIble is the inspired word of God but the inspired word of men. Science has shown us the depth of God's indifference when it comes to violating the laws of physics. My idea of God is not consistent with the idea of God in the Bible because I cannot reconcile it with my understanding of science and physics.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I don't believe is the BIble is the inspired word of God but the inspired word of men. Science has shown us the depth of God's indifference when it comes to violating the laws of physics. My idea of God is not consistent with the idea of God in the Bible because I cannot reconcile it with my understanding of science and physics.

Are you a Physicist ?

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Firstly, a definition: "A curse is a solemn statement with the intention to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment upon the person who is the subject of the curse".

The passage does not say that the Law is cursed, it says the Law is the curse.

Lets do some substitution into the definition to clarify things: 'The Law is a solemn statement with the intention of invoking a supernatural power to inflict punishment upon everyone who is subject to, but transgresses against the Law'.

In the passage it says that Jesus Christ became cursed for our sake. This is because Jesus made Himself a substitute for those who transgress against the Law (us sinners) by bearing our sins on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

No-one cursed God. Jesus placed Himself our predicament of being cursed. He became 'cursed for our sake' as it says in the passage. This does not imply that someone cursed Him.

Also, the passage mentions that by faith we may receive the promised Spirit.

Under Islam, that promised Spirit is supposed to be the angel Gabriel. Yet history shows that the faithful do not receive Gabriel. The angel is conspicuously absent!

Yet many Christians receive the promised Spirit and it is through this Holy Spirit that we can perform healing, speak in, and understand, unlearned languages, gain knowledge and wisdom supernaturally, perform miracles and also prophesy. These things are documented and still occur to this day.

a reply to: Disturbinatti Gnosisisfaith I see you have once again made a new acct here on ATS.

Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Ps 119:21 ¶ Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

The law is never said to be a curse it is those who deny it and cannot keep it that are cursed and because we are men none of us can keep it. No Man can keep the law therefore they are cursed. In taking their curse upon himself Jesus became the cursed for all mankind. Not even Muslims keep all their laws/rules/regulations and those commands of Mohamad can curse no one for all his followers are cursed already for not confirming the words of God as found in the Old testament nor do they attempt to do them.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Where it says our or we or ye, put in your name.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: dfnj2015

You could have just as many transgressions with fewer laws. I did the math

We run into statue laws such as with the Motor Vehicle Act ...If we break any of the statute laws we can be punished under the law . Now go remove these laws and see how many can be broken . The commandments are considered laws and the first commandment is to love God with all your heart and mind and soul . There is also the law not to covet . How would it be possible to figure out not to covet ?

I don't believe is the BIble is the inspired word of God but the inspired word of men. Science has shown us the depth of God's indifference when it comes to violating the laws of physics. My idea of God is not consistent with the idea of God in the Bible because I cannot reconcile it with my understanding of science and physics.

Science really says nothing about God, nor can it.

Science is bounded in a philosophy of hard naturalism (one that assumes that there is no supernatural at all). As such it cannot make such rationally inconsistent determinations as you suggest.

I suspect that you just haven't given it consideration to realise the conundrum and are basing your opinion on arbitrary prejudice.

Jesus (pbuh)

This irritates me, if you can't be bothered to type the whole thing out, why even bother?

Where does it say, for 1, that you have to say "peace be upon him"?

and 2, where does it say you can abbreviate to save YOURSELF a few precious seconds to not be bothered to type the whole damn thing out?

Don't act like you're so religious, or so respectful that you can't type out "peace be upon him"
I didn't even type that, I copied and pasted by the way

I wanted to comment that not even the scholars who translated my Bible with its enourmous amount of footnotes could explain any of this.

Tried hard with "angels ordained the Law" and the best they could do was say it was oral tradition that angels were "present" at Sinai.

Present doesn't mean ordained though and Jesus pbuh is no fan of oral traditions.

Also Jubilees, the book I was reading that says in the into it "contradicts" Paul by saying that the Law existed before creation.

But Jubilees is older than Paul and a written tradition found with Enoch in the DSS so it wasn't the tradition at the time at all.

Nor is it today.

Stop a Christian on the st. Ask who ordained the Law. How many will say angels? Only hardcore Paulinists.

Most will say God because the Torah is more genuine than Saul "some guy" of Tarsus aka Paul.

They will rightly say the Law of Moses was never applicable to goyim and is not now. The truth.

But what IS binding is the Ten Commandments like Jesus pbuh said they must be obeyed to gain access to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Love God, love your neighbor, fulfills the whole Law.

God, through Jesus/Issa, pbuh, did that before Paul.

The only Law to call a curse in the time of Paul was the Law of God.

Not the angels.

a reply to: mymymy

I am not "acting" religous.

Just. BEING Muslim. It is a religion and I am a believer. If that is "religous'' so am I.

It's tradition when you mention a Prophet to say "Peace be upon him."

Odd thing to gripe about I must have hit a nerve.

Nobody can answer, I get it, it makes you mad.

I am not Paul. Blame him.

It's like you think you can deduce my thoughts because I am a Muslim? I don't get that at all. I am sure you know what I explained already but just im case I did anyway.

I would say take your advice, worry about you.

I am fine. I don't need to act. I like the real me, the only me.

by the MO (Modus Operandus) we can see by all the "words" and "claims" used by Disturbinatti in the last two post alone, this is in fact Gnosisifaith from January 2016 who has had over 70 different user account names and having been banned every time.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Slander me all you wish.

It doesn't change the fact that Paul's theology is idiocy par excellence.

a reply to: ChesterJohn


But do you just run around making false allegations?

This thread has a topic.

It is not what you think about me either, you don't know me and can't answer 1 question without being refuted so you do what is chic on this site as I see the past few days.

Anybody who doesn't agree with you but is right and you really know it you guys, I presume only Christians would bother, can't explain your doctrines and become liars when it happens.

I have seen it a million times in as many places.

It is the m.o. of Paul.

If through my lies God's glory abounds why am I being judged a sinner?

It IS a sin. That's why Paul, that's why.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

what ever you say Gnosisisfaith.

You have been shown truth about your false narrative of the law being a curse yet failed to admit you are wrong.

Paul spoke, taught and preached more truth about God and Jesus than you ever have.

You are cursed and always will be until you through faith believe on Jesus and receive the free gift of salvation from God.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Whoever you are whatever your problem is...

It is not my fault you can't explain the doctrines of Christianity.

Or yours. It doesn't match the teachings of Jesus pbuh, doesn't make sense regarding Paul and his and the ones in his name's epistles are rambling nonsense.