Healthcare and hospitals should all be not-for-profit

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: dfnj2015

You seem to have no morals.

That is quite a reach.

Well, keep reaching and maybe you will find the capacity some day.

You stated that I seem to have no morals.
What do you base this on?
It is quite a reach, unless you can point to some evidence that I have no morals.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Third is we outlaw health insurance.

Believe it or not being a Dr. radiologist or Nero is a job. If there were no insurance, there would be no third home on the Michigan shore line for your neurologist. Prices would fall.

Now the question would be would a specialist go through all the SH it they made 300,000$ instead of 1,000,000$ a year?

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: dfnj2015

You seem to have no morals.

That is quite a reach.

Well, keep reaching and maybe you will find the capacity some day.

You stated that I seem to have no morals.
What do you base this on?
It is quite a reach, unless you can point to some evidence that I have no morals.

Screw the poor people and let them die because they are not credit worthy maybe what the comment on your morals came from.

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: dfnj2015

You seem to have no morals.

That is quite a reach.

Well, keep reaching and maybe you will find the capacity some day.

You stated that I seem to have no morals.
What do you base this on?
It is quite a reach, unless you can point to some evidence that I have no morals.

Screw the poor people and let them die because they are not credit worthy maybe what the comment on your morals came from.

Did I say that?
You shouldn't put words in my mouth.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: seasonal

Have you seen how a private health care co treats it's patients with no insurance-they don't.

The same way a lender treats a person applying for a mortgage when they have a low credit rating and no job.

But health care is a right!

Shouldn't a roof over one's head be a right too?

So I want a really expensive house like Bill Gates lives in.

We enter the area where the celebrity baby with a heart condition argument is.

Sound like Limbaugh right there. Making a point then extrapolating it out to the nth degree is not helpful.

Should we provide housing for someone freezing to death? Please answer.

Should we provide health care for some one who will die with out it? Please answer.

American life is about making $$$, I get that.

But there are situations and people who are not. As a country we need to make up our minds, there is plenty of everything.

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Well, it's the Declaration of Independence, which is not a governing document of the United States. Furthermore, it cites "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (notice it says "pursuit of happiness" and not just "happiness") as being inalienable rights that are provided by "[our] Creator" (I prefer to call them 'natural rights'). In essence, the spirit of the statement is that those natural rights are protected from government, not provided and guaranteed by government.

You're bastardizing the words and intent of what was written down to try and prove an invalid point. Every single person, from the homeless guy under the bridge to President Trump, will be treated in an emergency situation at a U.S. hospital, regardless of their ability to pay.

a reply to: seasonal

Should we provide housing for someone freezing to death? Please answer. 

Yes, and we do.
I never said that we shouldn't. This is a case of several people in this thread extrapolating on my comments.

Should we provide health care for some one who will die with out it? Please answer. 

Everyone will die with or without it. It is all a matter of where you draw the line. I never said that the poor should not be taken care of if they need care.
But there are a lot of lines that need to be drawn.

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Corporations have the right to gouge the American people and fleece them for everything they have with low quality services designed to maximize profit for the CEO.

While CEOs make a lot of money, their compensation and that of other top officers at a company is miniscule in the overall cost structure. Your lack of understanding of business, supply chains, and economics is astounding.

NOTHING IS FREE. You are ranting about hospital profit, but what about the Doctor profit? How much should Doctors make for their services? What about nurses? What about Pharmacists? What about any one in the supply chain that has to get paid and stay in business?

It cost money to provide quality healthcare. Profit is what drives a lot of the innovation in healthcare. Profit is the ultimate motivator for innovation and why free markets always out innovate any other economic system and ultimately drives down cost.

All of the problems with our healthcare system can be traced back to government interference in the market starting back in WWII when insurance was tied to your employment to get around wage controls.

Sure the government could open up the checkbook, but what are you willing to give up in return? Government does not have an unlimited supply of money. Let's make a deal... I'll give you single payer or socialized medicine and you have to give up Dept of Education maybe? Or how about HUD? Or how about the NEA? What should we cut in the military? Which sh*thole third world country should we stop supporting?

What about the pharmaceuticals companies and stupid thing with "company reps" that travel around and push pills???

What competition?
Lol.

There is profit, which is reasonable.

Then there is what we have in the U.S.

Oh the weeping and gnashing of teeth if a foodstamp recipient goes to the gmo isle for fruits and vegetables.

So there goes your "lifestyle choices" argument.

Its obvious to anyone with half a brain what is causing the explosion of health issues in this country.

Choices the people did not make. They snuck the gmo in, then denied it was dangerous, and now every grocery store has a non-gmo isle.

It is exactly what it looks like.

Kill the 100,000,000 useless eaters a.s.a.p.

Pharm Reps are in sales. Pretty much every industry has some type of sales force. You know, that is how a business sells their product. Jeez, you people cannot be this thick mentally.

Again, almost all of the issues I see people complaining about are driven by government interference that has distorted the market.

I'd support medicare for all, but I also want government out of the way so there is a free market option too. However, as I stated above, what are we going to stop pissing money away on as a country? We can't have unlimited healthcare while also importing hordes of illegal immigrants. You libs going to shut the border down?

a reply to: butcherguy

Yes, and we do. I never said that we shouldn't. This is a case of several people in this thread extrapolating on my comments.

Your writing style seems to pass a different idea to the readers.

You now seem to say, and agree with what I wrote. But the post in question seems to be status quo and not what you just wrote.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Well, it's the Declaration of Independence, which is not a governing document of the United States.

Huh?

Furthermore, it cites "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (notice it says "pursuit of happiness" and not just "happiness")

I think this argument is over life, not happiness.

Happiness is a choice.

as being inalienable rights that are provided by "[our] Creator" (I prefer to call them 'natural rights'). In essence, the spirit of the statement is that those natural rights are protected from government, not provided and guaranteed by government.

What about my right to buy apricot seeds from a health food store then? One of many plants I am now prohibited from buying to treat my own health issues.

You're bastardizing the words and intent of what was written down to try and prove an invalid point.

Lol.

Every single person, from the homeless guy under the bridge to President Trump, will be treated in an emergency situation at a U.S. hospital, regardless of their ability to pay.

Bovine excrement.

They wont let you die in an e.r., but they sure as hell will not look for health issues causing you problems much less treat them.

.... Broken arm..?..."here let me wrap that up for you, you should see a orthopedic. That will be $2000.00 for the application of that ace bandage, 2 x-rays, and your note to see a orthopedic. "

Pancreatitis? Stop the vomiting and show them the door.

Heart issues?.......lol.
More people die in hospital parking lots every year.

This is soft kill. Nothing less.

Im a nature girl, but some of that $5000 dollar a pop diagnostic equipment could identify problems that people could fix at home.

Not at $5000 a pop though. You cant justify these diagnostic tool prices. You cant justify any of the prices.

Insurance companies are getting paid from all ends. The dr. The patient. The hospital. The nurse. The government. .....everyone is basically forced to be the hooker to the insurance companies that dont actually do, or produce ANYTHING!

On top of that....leaves, seeds, roots, and practicing (actual) medicine can all land you in prison.

This is all by design, if I can figure it out, anyone can.

Kill off the poor first, then the next group, skilled blue collar replaced by 3-d printers, then the lower end white collar will be selected as our technological advances gradually make every working person obsolete.

a reply to: blueyedevilwoman

Period, insurance companies are a totally unnecessary middle man taking 25+% off the top of every dollar spent in healthcare....and all without preforming a medical function....

Ballsy?? Yes... efficient.. not even a little..

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Corporations have the right to gouge the American people and fleece them for everything they have with low quality services designed to maximize profit for the CEO.

While CEOs make a lot of money, their compensation and that of other top officers at a company is miniscule in the overall cost structure. Your lack of understanding of business, supply chains, and economics is astounding.

NOTHING IS FREE. You are ranting about hospital profit, but what about the Doctor profit? How much should Doctors make for their services? What about nurses? What about Pharmacists? What about any one in the supply chain that has to get paid and stay in business?

It cost money to provide quality healthcare. Profit is what drives a lot of the innovation in healthcare. Profit is the ultimate motivator for innovation and why free markets always out innovate any other economic system and ultimately drives down cost.

All of the problems with our healthcare system can be traced back to government interference in the market starting back in WWII when insurance was tied to your employment to get around wage controls.

Sure the government could open up the checkbook, but what are you willing to give up in return? Government does not have an unlimited supply of money. Let's make a deal... I'll give you single payer or socialized medicine and you have to give up Dept of Education maybe? Or how about HUD? Or how about the NEA? What should we cut in the military? Which sh*thole third world country should we stop supporting?

What about the pharmaceuticals companies and stupid thing with "company reps" that travel around and push pills???

What competition?
Lol.

There is profit, which is reasonable.

Then there is what we have in the U.S.

Oh the weeping and gnashing of teeth if a foodstamp recipient goes to the gmo isle for fruits and vegetables.

So there goes your "lifestyle choices" argument.

Its obvious to anyone with half a brain what is causing the explosion of health issues in this country.

Choices the people did not make. They snuck the gmo in, then denied it was dangerous, and now every grocery store has a non-gmo isle.

It is exactly what it looks like.

Kill the 100,000,000 useless eaters a.s.a.p.

Pharm Reps are in sales. Pretty much every industry has some type of sales force. You know, that is how a business sells their product. Jeez, you people cannot be this thick mentally.

Again, almost all of the issues I see people complaining about are driven by government interference that has distorted the market.

I'd support medicare for all, but I also want government out of the way so there is a free market option too. However, as I stated above, what are we going to stop pissing money away on as a country? We can't have unlimited healthcare while also importing hordes of illegal immigrants. You libs going to shut the border down?

$120,000 annual salary to float in and out of dr. offices with tons of perks sounds reasonable to you?

My apologies Mr. Rockefeller

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Corporations have the right to gouge the American people and fleece them for everything they have with low quality services designed to maximize profit for the CEO.

While CEOs make a lot of money, their compensation and that of other top officers at a company is miniscule in the overall cost structure. Your lack of understanding of business, supply chains, and economics is astounding.

NOTHING IS FREE. You are ranting about hospital profit, but what about the Doctor profit? How much should Doctors make for their services? What about nurses? What about Pharmacists? What about any one in the supply chain that has to get paid and stay in business?

It cost money to provide quality healthcare. Profit is what drives a lot of the innovation in healthcare. Profit is the ultimate motivator for innovation and why free markets always out innovate any other economic system and ultimately drives down cost.

All of the problems with our healthcare system can be traced back to government interference in the market starting back in WWII when insurance was tied to your employment to get around wage controls.

Sure the government could open up the checkbook, but what are you willing to give up in return? Government does not have an unlimited supply of money. Let's make a deal... I'll give you single payer or socialized medicine and you have to give up Dept of Education maybe? Or how about HUD? Or how about the NEA? What should we cut in the military? Which sh*thole third world country should we stop supporting?

What about the pharmaceuticals companies and stupid thing with "company reps" that travel around and push pills???

What competition?
Lol.

There is profit, which is reasonable.

Then there is what we have in the U.S.

Oh the weeping and gnashing of teeth if a foodstamp recipient goes to the gmo isle for fruits and vegetables.

So there goes your "lifestyle choices" argument.

Its obvious to anyone with half a brain what is causing the explosion of health issues in this country.

Choices the people did not make. They snuck the gmo in, then denied it was dangerous, and now every grocery store has a non-gmo isle.

It is exactly what it looks like.

Kill the 100,000,000 useless eaters a.s.a.p.

Pharm Reps are in sales. Pretty much every industry has some type of sales force. You know, that is how a business sells their product. Jeez, you people cannot be this thick mentally.

Again, almost all of the issues I see people complaining about are driven by government interference that has distorted the market.

I'd support medicare for all, but I also want government out of the way so there is a free market option too. However, as I stated above, what are we going to stop pissing money away on as a country? We can't have unlimited healthcare while also importing hordes of illegal immigrants. You libs going to shut the border down?

$120,000 annual salary to float in and out of dr. offices handing out free samples, with tons of perks sounds reasonable to you?

My apologies Mr. Rockefeller

edit on 03 23 2017 by blueyedevilwoman because: quote

edit on 03 23 2017 by blueyedevilwoman because: (no reason given)

edit on 03 23 2017 by blueyedevilwoman because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Corporations have the right to gouge the American people and fleece them for everything they have with low quality services designed to maximize profit for the CEO.

While CEOs make a lot of money, their compensation and that of other top officers at a company is miniscule in the overall cost structure. Your lack of understanding of business, supply chains, and economics is astounding.

NOTHING IS FREE. You are ranting about hospital profit, but what about the Doctor profit? How much should Doctors make for their services? What about nurses? What about Pharmacists? What about any one in the supply chain that has to get paid and stay in business?

It cost money to provide quality healthcare. Profit is what drives a lot of the innovation in healthcare. Profit is the ultimate motivator for innovation and why free markets always out innovate any other economic system and ultimately drives down cost.

All of the problems with our healthcare system can be traced back to government interference in the market starting back in WWII when insurance was tied to your employment to get around wage controls.

Sure the government could open up the checkbook, but what are you willing to give up in return? Government does not have an unlimited supply of money. Let's make a deal... I'll give you single payer or socialized medicine and you have to give up Dept of Education maybe? Or how about HUD? Or how about the NEA? What should we cut in the military? Which sh*thole third world country should we stop supporting?

What about the pharmaceuticals companies and stupid thing with "company reps" that travel around and push pills???

What competition?
Lol.

There is profit, which is reasonable.

Then there is what we have in the U.S.

Oh the weeping and gnashing of teeth if a foodstamp recipient goes to the gmo isle for fruits and vegetables.

So there goes your "lifestyle choices" argument.

Its obvious to anyone with half a brain what is causing the explosion of health issues in this country.

Choices the people did not make. They snuck the gmo in, then denied it was dangerous, and now every grocery store has a non-gmo isle.

It is exactly what it looks like.

Kill the 100,000,000 useless eaters a.s.a.p.

We can't have unlimited healthcare while also importing hordes of illegal immigrants. You libs going to shut the border down?

Ultra liberal right wing fanatic.

I risked my life driving the illegal alien hordes out of my county.

What did you do?

a reply to: blueyedevilwoman

Impressive post.

I agree. Why is an MRI still $2000 plus? This is 1980's tech. Tech is supposed to make things cheaper.

The medical industry needs to have it's wings clipped.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: blueyedevilwoman

Impressive post.

I agree. Why is an MRI still $2000 plus? This is 1980's tech. Tech is supposed to make things cheap.

That is what I was told too.

Cheaper better faster.......yeah right.

They actually have trade schools now that simply train people to fill out insurance forms.

A whole industry built around nothing more than a cheap pyramid scheme.

I agree. I think a nonprofit system is as close to a free market as possible with competition between non profits. It protects the ethical issues without needing to make an insane amount of oversights.

The for profit medical research system is destroying medicine. My wife is a medical research professor. The conflict of interest in drug trial is really bad. It has created a 50 percent fabrication rate and journals are not catching it for sometimes a decade. Including diagnosis.

There have been several occasions a bad diagnosis and treatment procedure passed through peer review and resulted in death in psychology.

When your doctor is reading up on new procedure and technique in say the new England journal of medicine, they expect it's thoroughly vetted. So when they start following a procedure that was fabricated to protect the amount of research money and profit needed to make share holders happy,...well people get the wrong drugs and treatment. Sometimes for years.

I am a free market kind of guy but this is the only way to keep it from total government control.
It's also why it isn't even suggested. They don't want to fix anything, these guys already make tons from lobbyists.

Healthcare is working out great for a lot of congressman and medical professionals.

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Tardacus
doesn`t the bill of rights or the constitution guarantee every American the right to life?

so, if you die because you can`t afford proper healthcare then that means that your right to life has been violated by the insurance company,the hospital or someone.

if it`s a "right' that only the wealthy can afford then it isn`t actually a "right" it`s a privilege.

Corporations have the right to gouge the American people and fleece them for everything they have with low quality services designed to maximize profit for the CEO.

While CEOs make a lot of money, their compensation and that of other top officers at a company is miniscule in the overall cost structure. Your lack of understanding of business, supply chains, and economics is astounding.

NOTHING IS FREE. You are ranting about hospital profit, but what about the Doctor profit? How much should Doctors make for their services? What about nurses? What about Pharmacists? What about any one in the supply chain that has to get paid and stay in business?

It cost money to provide quality healthcare. Profit is what drives a lot of the innovation in healthcare. Profit is the ultimate motivator for innovation and why free markets always out innovate any other economic system and ultimately drives down cost.

All of the problems with our healthcare system can be traced back to government interference in the market starting back in WWII when insurance was tied to your employment to get around wage controls.

Sure the government could open up the checkbook, but what are you willing to give up in return? Government does not have an unlimited supply of money. Let's make a deal... I'll give you single payer or socialized medicine and you have to give up Dept of Education maybe? Or how about HUD? Or how about the NEA? What should we cut in the military? Which sh*thole third world country should we stop supporting?

What about the pharmaceuticals companies and stupid thing with "company reps" that travel around and push pills???

What competition?
Lol.

There is profit, which is reasonable.

Then there is what we have in the U.S.

Oh the weeping and gnashing of teeth if a foodstamp recipient goes to the gmo isle for fruits and vegetables.

So there goes your "lifestyle choices" argument.

Its obvious to anyone with half a brain what is causing the explosion of health issues in this country.

Choices the people did not make. They snuck the gmo in, then denied it was dangerous, and now every grocery store has a non-gmo isle.

It is exactly what it looks like.

Kill the 100,000,000 useless eaters a.s.a.p.

Pharm Reps are in sales. Pretty much every industry has some type of sales force. You know, that is how a business sells their product. Jeez, you people cannot be this thick mentally.

Again, almost all of the issues I see people complaining about are driven by government interference that has distorted the market.

I'd support medicare for all, but I also want government out of the way so there is a free market option too. However, as I stated above, what are we going to stop pissing money away on as a country? We can't have unlimited healthcare while also importing hordes of illegal immigrants. You libs going to shut the border down?

$120,000 annual salary to float in and out of dr. offices with tons of perks sounds reasonable to you?

My apologies Mr. Rockefeller

It is very reasonable if you are producing 4 to 5x's that in sales. These are also largely commission oriented positions. This is why sales people generally make the most in organizations. They get paid to bring in the business. However, if you are in a cost function you typically will not make as much. If what they do is so easy, please quit your job and become a sales rep instead of being butt hurt about what they make.

a reply to: Edumakated

In my opinion the problem isn't as much how much anyone makes. It's the part after that and motive.

If your goal is to make as much money for your shareholders why would you cure or treat something to the best of your ability? Especially if there are patents and the amount of subversion that is going on in pharma. They even hire ghost writers to infiltrate publications.

I think after cost which includes salary a modest future expansion pool, and research pools you have to curb the public trading and for profit aspect or you'll need excessive regulation to control ethical issues.

Like we are seeing.

People are not addressing the main issue. And that is how the profit motive is changing insurance providers behaviors in bad ways. Does a corporation have the right to reject someone with a pre-existing condition? Let them die. It's more profitable.

I'm getting a little sick and tired of you spineless Republicans not saying exactly how you feel. Just say, "If a person has a pre-existing condition tough on them. The corporation has every right to deny them coverage." I bet not single one of you right wing jelly fish will actually state what you stand for.