A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Akragon

And how can we tell nonsense from reason?

Good question. Some examples are really obvious, like just sitting there and letting a fever kill your child because you believe in prayer more than you do in medicine. Some examples are a lot more subtle and nuanced, like teaching religion in schools or making birth control tax free. Gay marriage has been largely legalized and society hasn't collapsed yet. The "church of atheism" is a thing now (which is nonsense to me but whatever) and reality hasn't torn itself apart in a frenzy. I guess in the end, none of it matters. Not one thing on this entire planet is really relevant in the cosmic scope. I could lay the math out but we all know how google works. We are the butt of a cruel joke that only we can appreciate, yet can do nothing about. Still...lemons and lemonade. If only we weren't too self important to accept it.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Science, everything else is personal belief.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why that arrangement has your undies tied up in a knot.

I don't see an issue at all with having personal beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that, because in all honesty we don't know everything. I see no problem with scientists holding personal beliefs, or any other person. As long as the believer isn't trying to shove it down people's throats, make up lies about science or attack people who believe differently, I don't see the big deal. Believing in something based on faith is much different than accepting something based on knowledge and testable data like science. Noiden wasn't saying that his views are proven or that they are equivalent to science. Just that he believes it. That doesn't mean he goes around life forcing it on people, or disregarding science in favor of it.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Akragon

And how can we tell nonsense from reason?

common sense i suppose

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Akragon

And how can we tell nonsense from reason?

common sense i suppose

Common sense is def not how you discern nonsense from reason. Common sense is what we all agree on to be true, 1+1=2 is common sense. The sun will come up tomorrow is common sense. The cow goes moo, is common sense.

Spirits, ghosts, and Gods, are not common sense. In fact, Since they lack any corroborating evidence for their existence, they are literally the opposite of common sense.

originally posted by: Barcs
I don't see an issue at all with having personal beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that, because in all honesty we don't know everything. I see no problem with scientists holding personal beliefs, or any other person. As long as the believer isn't trying to shove it down people's throats, make up lies about science or attack people who believe differently, I don't see the big deal. Believing in something based on faith is much different than accepting something based on knowledge and testable data like science. Noiden wasn't saying that his views are proven or that they are equivalent to science. Just that he believes it. That doesn't mean he goes around life forcing it on people, or disregarding science in favor of it.

My interest is in figuring out how people can hold beliefs that are demonstrably untrue. Or at least beliefs that have not been proven to be true and that seem extremely unlikely given what we do know about how the universe works. I know that most people don’t think that their personal beliefs affect those around them, but that is just not the case. Laws are made based on religious beliefs, people make every day decisions based on their religious beliefs, people justify all kinds of horrible acts based on beliefs that make no sense.

People send their kids to certain schools based on which unprovable beliefs they have in common. People vote for politicians based on silly beliefs they have in common. People choose their friends based on Unprovable beliefs they have in common. People choose their enemies based on the unprovable beliefs that they have.

You might say to yourself, that none of these things apply to you, but you cannot deny that this happens in the world around us, to the very detriment of reason and sanity. If you look hard enough at your own life, you’ll probably see that this does apply to you in some fashion or another. And my point is that if people were more reasonable about their beliefs, instead of insisting that whatever they want to believe is valid and # everybody else, then maybe this world would make a lot more sense.

If people made more decisions based on a reasonable view of the world, there would be a lot less room for corruption and crime, people would be fed and sheltered properly, pollution and environmental waste would no longer be an issue. racism, sexism, And religious differences would no longer be a thing. Technology could be used to help us instead of spy on us and poison us.

People would no longer be able to shirk their responsibilities onto a nonexistent God. They Would actually be forced to realize that they need to take action to change their environment and make their lives better.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Woodcarver

Science, everything else is personal belief.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why that arrangement has your undies tied up in a knot.

What purpose do these unprovable beliefs serve?

Could the world be a better place if people didn’t believe in silly unprovable things? could the world be a better place if people didn’t defend their unprovable beliefs, And instead focused on ideas that are well-founded and that we know we can use to help society as a whole?


What if society as a whole agreed to push towards reason, instead of supporting everybody’s individual fantasy?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Akragon

And how can we tell nonsense from reason?

Good question. Some examples are really obvious, like just sitting there and letting a fever kill your child because you believe in prayer more than you do in medicine. Some examples are a lot more subtle and nuanced, like teaching religion in schools or making birth control tax free. Gay marriage has been largely legalized and society hasn't collapsed yet. The "church of atheism" is a thing now (which is nonsense to me but whatever) and reality hasn't torn itself apart in a frenzy. I guess in the end, none of it matters. Not one thing on this entire planet is really relevant in the cosmic scope. I could lay the math out but we all know how google works. We are the butt of a cruel joke that only we can appreciate, yet can do nothing about. Still...lemons and lemonade. If only we weren't too self important to accept it.

I agree that a church of atheism sounds ridiculous, but it’s not like they are popping up everywhere. It is probably inevitable that something like that pops up. If anything, it is a hybrid of people that like the idea of gathering as a community, but have realised that the story that churches use make no sense. Now they sit together and discuss why it makes no sense, and why it is so hard to remove the habits from one’s mind that they have been taught since they were children. They are using that same setting to share and spread reason instead of fairy tales. All the while, being a community and helping each other.

I do understand people’s desire to meet up regularly as a community and talk about the things that they are interested in and even the things that they all agree upon. People need more socializing in general. What gets in the way are all of the unprovable claims that they argue about.

It’s funny , But it’s easy to see that what separates and divides people the most, is their beliefs in unprovable things. People defend those things with more passion than is reasonable.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
What purpose do these unprovable beliefs serve?

None, but what difference does that make to you?

Could the world be a better place if people didn’t believe in silly unprovable things? could the world be a better place if people didn’t defend their unprovable beliefs, And instead focused on ideas that are well-founded and that we know we can use to help society as a whole?

Maybe, maybe not.

What if society as a whole agreed to push towards reason, instead of supporting everybody’s individual fantasy?

What do you mean by "supporting everybody’s individual fantasy"?

It almost sounds to me like people are free to have their individual fantasies and you want to take that freedom away. That doesn't sound cool at all.

a reply to: edmc^2
Yes.
Everything has a beginning regardless of cause. Just like everything has an end.

originally posted by: JAY1980
a reply to: edmc^2
Yes.
Everything has a beginning regardless of cause. Just like everything has an end.

Then it's a conundrum.

What was there before the beginning?

Here's a simulation of the birth of the Universe. Now tell me, do you think the "empty - black - space - dark space" surrounding the universe had a beginning too?

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: JAY1980
a reply to: edmc^2
Yes.
Everything has a beginning regardless of cause. Just like everything has an end.

Then it's a conundrum.

What was there before the beginning?

Here's a simulation of the birth of the Universe. Now tell me, do you think the "empty - black - space - dark space" surrounding the universe had a beginning too?

It would be wrong to think of empty space as "nothingness", a complete absence of anything. Space is a "fabric" that has energy and gives rise to virtual particles. Our universe (which may be just one of many) might have been born out of an area of false vacuum which spontaneously decayed to a lower energy state.

a reply to: Woodcarver

If people made more decisions based on a reasonable view of the world, there would be a lot less room for corruption and crime, people would be fed and sheltered properly, pollution and environmental waste would no longer be an issue. racism, sexism, And religious differences would no longer be a thing. Technology could be used to help us instead of spy on us and poison us. People would no longer be able to shirk their responsibilities onto a nonexistent God. They Would actually be forced to realize that they need to take action to change their environment and

Clearly you hold quite a few beliefs yourself. Have you considered that in all this?

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: JAY1980
a reply to: edmc^2
Yes.
Everything has a beginning regardless of cause. Just like everything has an end.

Then it's a conundrum.

What was there before the beginning?

Here's a simulation of the birth of the Universe. Now tell me, do you think the "empty - black - space - dark space" surrounding the universe had a beginning too?

Of course it did, just like any product of causality. That includes hypothetical divine beings or higher powers. Although it would be nice to see a simulation video dissecting the mechanics of a higher power in the same manner as that universe birth, which doesnt appear to have any gods in it at all.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I agree with you completely when it comes to believing things that are demonstrably wrong. I'm also strongly opposed to forcing religion into law or into school curriculum. You are absolutely right about using a belief system to harm others.

Things that can't be proved are a completely different story, however. I feel that everybody has a gut feeling about something, it is basically a guess about the unknown. I look at things like the Genesis creation story as demonstrably wrong because it conflicts with science directly. But the idea of the possible existence of god(s) is not out of the question, so I can't fault people just for believing. The problem comes when you turn those beliefs into reality or use it to fuel all of the things you mentioned in your post.

In my opinion, it is about an individual's ability to effectively separate personal beliefs from reality. Many people are able to do this, but tons of people can't. When people use a belief system to make decisions or let it affect their scientific work, they are not doing a good job separating reality from faith. It boils down to rationality and the willingness to accept that your own personal beliefs COULD be wrong. I'm not trying to sound cliche, but I feel that is one of the biggest steps to self enlightenment.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: Woodcarver

If people made more decisions based on a reasonable view of the world, there would be a lot less room for corruption and crime, people would be fed and sheltered properly, pollution and environmental waste would no longer be an issue. racism, sexism, And religious differences would no longer be a thing. Technology could be used to help us instead of spy on us and poison us. People would no longer be able to shirk their responsibilities onto a nonexistent God. They Would actually be forced to realize that they need to take action to change their environment and

Clearly you hold quite a few beliefs yourself. Have you considered that in all this?

I’m pretty sure everyone has beliefs, but i find it important to believe as many true things as possible and to discount as many false claims as possible. Can you find any fault with that? Would you like to tell me which beliefs i have that are unprovable? Because that is what we are discussing right?

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: Woodcarver

I agree with you completely when it comes to believing things that are demonstrably wrong. I'm also strongly opposed to forcing religion into law or into school curriculum. You are absolutely right about using a belief system to harm others.

Things that can't be proved are a completely different story, however. I feel that everybody has a gut feeling about something, it is basically a guess about the unknown. I look at things like the Genesis creation story as demonstrably wrong because it conflicts with science directly. But the idea of the possible existence of god(s) is not out of the question, so I can't fault people just for believing. The problem comes when you turn those beliefs into reality or use it to fuel all of the things you mentioned in your post.

In my opinion, it is about an individual's ability to effectively separate personal beliefs from reality. Many people are able to do this, but tons of people can't. When people use a belief system to make decisions or let it affect their scientific work, they are not doing a good job separating reality from faith. It boils down to rationality and the willingness to accept that your own personal beliefs COULD be wrong. I'm not trying to sound cliche, but I feel that is one of the biggest steps to self enlightenment.

Why hold personal beliefs that do not mesh with reality? What is the benefit? How is it better than holding beliefs that do fit with reality?

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Woodcarver
What purpose do these unprovable beliefs serve?

None, but what difference does that make to you?

Could the world be a better place if people didn’t believe in silly unprovable things? could the world be a better place if people didn’t defend their unprovable beliefs, And instead focused on ideas that are well-founded and that we know we can use to help society as a whole?

Maybe, maybe not.

What if society as a whole agreed to push towards reason, instead of supporting everybody’s individual fantasy?

What do you mean by "supporting everybody’s individual fantasy"?

It almost sounds to me like people are free to have their individual fantasies and you want to take that freedom away. That doesn't sound cool at all.

first off, I never said anything about taking peoples rights away. I don’t think that it’s even possible to keep people from having their fantasies. I’m just wondering why they are socially tolerable. Especially considering that these unproven claims are told and taught to children. Christianity is based on the idea that there are dire consequences for not believing. Why is that an acceptable thing to teach kids?

Would you support a family who teaches their kids that the boogieman will get them if they do not mind their manners? Isn’t the story of Santa Clause just the threat of not being rewarded if your on the naughty list?

a reply to: Woodcarver

That is why I said "it almost sounds" like that was what you are saying.

They are socially tolerable because they don't harm anyone and sooner or later they grow out of it. Sure some might go extremist or something but I'm going to go out on a limb and say those people would find any reason, if not religion, to snap.

Our family celebrates Christmas and I'm an atheist but I'm always down with any reason to party.

originally posted by: wildespace

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: JAY1980
a reply to: edmc^2
Yes.
Everything has a beginning regardless of cause. Just like everything has an end.

Then it's a conundrum.

What was there before the beginning?

Here's a simulation of the birth of the Universe. Now tell me, do you think the "empty - black - space - dark space" surrounding the universe had a beginning too?

It would be wrong to think of empty space as "nothingness", a complete absence of anything. Space is a "fabric" that has energy and gives rise to virtual particles. Our universe (which may be just one of many) might have been born out of an area of false vacuum which spontaneously decayed to a lower energy state.

This brings us to another question.
If as you stated:

. Space is a "fabric" that has energy and gives rise to virtual particles.

What kind of force (in a vacuum_energy) will have the Power to transform energy into matter?

Is the 'Vaccum_Energy" static or dynamic?

It can't be zero else it will be static.