Two activists who filmed undercover videos of Planned Parenthood charged with 15 felonies

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

You support the death penalty, so clearly you have no problem killing people. Hypothetically speaking, if we had a time machine, would you support going back and aborting Jeoffrey Dahmer, Hitler, etc? You clearly don't mind killing honest hard working good people merely because they are part of a different team, or have a different flag on their shoulder. Does an adult suffer less when you kill them than a zygote? Please remind me of how much you remember in the womb, how conscious you were, how much of a fully formed human you were. I'll wait.

You can spout altruistic drivel as much as you like, but the fact is you vote/support only those who's prerogative it is to prevent abortion, but otherwise disenfranchise and forget/malign the poor/sick/needy among us. This by definition is hypocritical. You are by proxy equivalent to the ones you empower to represent you. Military spending up 500%, gotta cut meals-on-wheels so that we can feed innocent brown kids in Afghanistan some 500 lb. bombs.

Is it your job to stop every death in the planet? Do you believe god will judge you harshly for not fighting to save every life (although clearly you don't mind killing fully formed humans so its a rhetorical question). Is it fair for you to judge women seeking an abortion (surely you must think so to have such an opinion, which also begs the questions, are you aware of all the factors for each an every one of them?). Do you believe God appreciates you judging these women for their actions, or do you think he would prefer to judge them himself?

And miscarriages: I know this may come as a shock to you, but the very man in the presidents seat right now suggested just such a thing. I'm sure you won't be shocked at that revelation because you're certain he was just 'joking' about that, because you're clearly such a good judge of character, nobody every pulls the wool over your eyes.

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

as the pregnancy continues on it's course, the more the fetus obtains rights, both in the eyes of the mother, and the eyes of the law.. no, in most states you cannot have a legal abortion at 26 weeks unless you have some really, really good reason!
also, not many doctors will do such a late term abortion because also as the pregnancy progresses, so doesn't the danger presented to the mother. in the first trimester, it is much safer to have an abortion than to carry a child to term and deliver it, but that kind of flips when you are talking about later term abortions.. and it becomes much more safer to carry the baby to term than it is to abort it. thus the really, really good reason for a 26 week abortion..

originally posted by: Wayfarer
a reply to: fredrodgers1960

Let's pick this apart, shall we? You do certainly like putting words into other people's mouths.

"You support the death penalty, so clearly you have no problem killing people."

I support killing people that have done a crime that deserves it. I do not support killing innocent children whose only crime was to be the result of two people having sex, who failed to use birth control. The writer Lewis Grissard had a great saying. "Don't want to get pregnant? Here's a dime, hold it between your knees." The fact that you keep trying to justify this by wrapping up a choice that a person made to commit a crime that justifies being put to death, with an innocent child who has committed no crime is most disturbing actually. There is a very large difference between taking an innocent child's life and that of a convicted murderer.

"Hypothetically speaking, if we had a time machine, would you support going back and aborting Jeoffrey Dahmer, Hitler, etc?"

Absolutely not. They became the evil people they were, they had a CHOICE to be evil or not, and they chose evil and ended up paying the price for that, and a lot of innocent people died too. BUT, they had a chance to live. They chose poorly. BUT, they had an opportunity to CHOOSE.

"You clearly don't mind killing honest hard working good people merely because they are part of a different team, or have a different flag on their shoulder."

As I said, I support wars when it is justified, I gave you examples, stop being obtuse.

"Does an adult suffer less when you kill them than a zygote? Please remind me of how much you remember in the womb, how conscious you were, how much of a fully formed human you were. I'll wait."

This is just absolutely nuts. A baby bonds with the mother's voice throughout the pregnancy. When my wife was carrying our children, they would stop kicking when she sang to them. They heard her and was soothed by the music. Ask any mother who has carried a child, and they will tell you the same thing. Please define for me when you think it's not okay to kill a baby and when. This should be classic.

"You can spout altruistic drivel as much as you like, but the fact is you vote/support only those who's prerogative it is to prevent abortion, but otherwise disenfranchise and forget/malign the poor/sick/needy among us."

Yeah, killing innocent babies is something I don't support, sorry. I already defined my stance on the poor/sick/needy. I think that everyone must try to make it through life on their own if possible.

"This by definition is hypocritical."

So, the fact that I want to give a child the chance to grow up and actually enjoy life and possibly contribute to the overall benefit of society instead of killing them before they have even the chance of living, means that I'm hypocritical? I can't figure out how that is so, but I guess guilty as charged.

"You are by proxy equivalent to the ones you empower to represent you. Military spending up 500%, gotta cut meals-on-wheels so that we can feed innocent brown kids in Afghanistan some 500 lb. bombs."

You do realize that there are terrorist organizations that wish to kill you and I, right? And man, you have the rhetoric down pat. I think that each and every "social program" needs to be carefully looked at and see if it is running in the most efficient way possible, yet still serves the people in need.

"Is it your job to stop every death in the planet?"

No, but I am for giving every child a chance to experience our wonderful planet, as long as it does not endanger the mother's life.

"Do you believe god will judge you harshly for not fighting to save every life (although clearly you don't mind killing fully formed humans so its a rhetorical question). Is it fair for you to judge women seeking an abortion (surely you must think so to have such an opinion, which also begs the questions, are you aware of all the factors for each an every one of them?). Do you believe God appreciates you judging these women for their actions, or do you think he would prefer to judge them himself?"

My belief in God is actually not any part of this, he/she/it will judge me on my overall actions and beliefs, OR I will just simply fade away, never to exists again, no one knows for sure. There are over 4000 known religions on this planet at the moment, either they are all wrong or one of them is right. Either way, we are all screwed I guess unless we happened to pick the right one. But this is the usual way to try to distort the issue at hand. If a woman decides to have an abortion, she should know and understand what ALL of the consequences of that action are, AND that a son/daughter will no longer be heading to earth. If she decides to have the abortion anyway, that's on her consensus not mine. What God may or may not think about that, is between her and whatever God she worships, if she does.

"And miscarriages: I know this may come as a shock to you, but the very man in the presidents seat right now suggested just such a thing. I'm sure you won't be shocked at that revelation because you're certain he was just 'joking' about that, because you're clearly such a good judge of character, nobody every pulls the wool over your eyes."

And, I left this one to the last. I find it funny how you hear what you want to hear. This is what Trump said, which you have twisted in context. "If a woman TAKES DRUGS and has a miscarriage or her child dies soon after birth, she faces jail time in many parts of the U.S." That was an interview with Chris Mathews in 2016. You always take out the reason(s) for the statement. I tend to agree with what he said. Now, you will come back with some lame banter about "abortion drugs" and that's not what he meant. He meant illegal drugs, like heroin, meth, coc aine, so forth. I know you want him to specify exactly what drugs, but if he had to specifically mention every single word you wish, that's all he'd be doing every day. Ready to hear the usual comebacks!!

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm sorry but I agree, time is the only real difference.

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

there has been women jailed for miscarriages...
my favorite story was the women who's boyfriend or husband, called and started an argument with her.. which got her upset. after the phone call, according to her, she got dizzy walking down the stairs and fell down them, lost the baby. but the prosecutor saw things differently, that she got so upset with her boyfriend/husband, she decided she didn't want the baby and decided to throw herself down the stairs to get rid of it. if I remember right, she was found guilty, but then the sentence was overturned...

there's another possibility I see with this...
pregnancy has a tendency of messing with a person's blood pressure, so wouldn't a heated argument. it's just as possible that the arguments got her upset enough, that it effected her blood pressure, and caused the dizzy spell...
but na, they'd never, ever blame the man for a miscarriage when he intentionally upsetting the pregnant women carrying his baby to the point that it causes her physical symptons, will they.

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm at the point where I don't think men (any man) should have any say in a woman's procreation decisions.

Whether he be the sperm donor or not.

This should be decided by women only.

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960


Let's take these one at a time since you seem to love to try to group them all together with the murder of a completely innocent child who has yet to even see the planet earth,

im curious?
at what point is the fetus an innocent child?

day one? week one? month one?

im very curious on this ...
your opinion of course

a reply to: Annee

I would hope that both mom and dad could sit down like adults and discuss it and come to agreement..
and still think that happens more often than not...
but who knows, maybe there's just big kids running around out there and not as many adults as there used to be, I don't know.

but, when first comes to shove, ya, it's the women's body, and her health that is affected.. she holds the trump card in it. especially when you consider that if she decides that it is the best solution, you can't really stop her from doing it! it's that we would prefer that it's done safely and she is able to walk away healthy rather than push her into a corner where she's risking her life with fake folk medicine and back alley "doctors" or worse, jumping off bridges..

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: fredrodgers1960

there has been women jailed for miscarriages...
my favorite story was the women who's boyfriend or husband, called and started an argument with her.. which got her upset. after the phone call, according to her, she got dizzy walking down the stairs and fell down them, lost the baby. but the prosecutor saw things differently, that she got so upset with her boyfriend/husband, she decided she didn't want the baby and decided to throw herself down the stairs to get rid of it. if I remember right, she was found guilty, but then the sentence was overturned...

there's another possibility I see with this...
pregnancy has a tendency of messing with a person's blood pressure, so wouldn't a heated argument. it's just as possible that the arguments got her upset enough, that it effected her blood pressure, and caused the dizzy spell...
but na, they'd never, ever blame the man for a miscarriage when he intentionally upsetting the pregnant women carrying his baby to the point that it causes her physical symptons, will they.

Anything like this would be up to the prosecuting attorney, I don't know anything about the circumstances nor would I comment on whether these particular cases merit anything at all.

I'm simply stating my opinion. I do think that abortion is wrong MOST of the time. Make it illegal? I think there would be too many individual instances where the particular isolated factors might cause a woman harm if she kept the pregnancy, so there would need to be the ability to terminate the pregnancy if needed.

What I do think we need to do is educate the woman before a "regular" pregnancy is terminated, she needs to know and understand that in 9 months, that "tissue mass" will be a son or daughter (or more!!) and that she is removing them from the planet before they even had a chance to see what the world is like.

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960


Let's take these one at a time since you seem to love to try to group them all together with the murder of a completely innocent child who has yet to even see the planet earth,

im curious?
at what point is the fetus an innocent child?

day one? week one? month one?

An individual's DNA is created at conception. The smaller it is, the more we should care about protecting it. Like I said, the only difference between killing the child at 1 week or 2 years old is TIME.

im very curious on this ...
your opinion of course

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Krazysh0t

He posed as a medical company looking to buy fetuses to secure interviews with PP personnel. During these interviews he secretly filmed them

How else was he going to get the truth?

Black Market sting, 101.

Yes, but his motive was dishonest, so he deserves punishment of some sort.

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

What I do think we need to do is educate the woman before a "regular" pregnancy is terminated, she needs to know and understand that in 9 months, that "tissue mass" will be a son or daughter (or more!!) and that she is removing them from the planet before they even had a chance to see what the world is like.

yes, because women are too stupid to know this, right??

I am pretty sure that they ARE aware of this fact. but not all things are black and white, are they?
ever hear of jellyfish babies?

Though US officials have long denied any link between their bombs and the alarming increase in health problems among Micronesians, they have yet to offer a satisfactory explanation as to why hundreds of jellyfish babies are born to Micronesian mothers. Literally, these babies look like blobs of jelly. These babies are born with no eyes, no heads and do not resemble human beings at all. They are twisted things that breathe for only a few hours. After death, they are buried right away. Mothers are not shown their mutated bodies; it would be too inhumane.

www.wiseinternational.org...

not every conceived egg grows to be a bouncing baby.. sometimes they don't even have the appearance of being human.
and, there are times when that little tiny fertilized egg can become too big of a hindrance to mom, making her unable to care for those children that have already been brought into the world who are depending on her. doesn't she also have to consider them also?

but here's the kicker of all kickers...
trumps recent healthcare revamp took away the requirement for maternity coverage the insurance policies... heck some of those men up there in congress, as well as probably some on these boards, don't see any reason why they should have to have such a thing in their insurance, they should be able to opt out...
such a thing would make it much more expensive for women to have health insurance that covered maternity care.
this would only encourage more women to head for an abortion, if they were to lose coverage, because the men just don't see why they should have to have it included in their health insurance!
let me tell you something right here and right now!! weather you are a man or a women living in this country, if your mother was able to obtain decent maternity care... you benefited from that care because she, and her doctor, made sure that you got a good start even before you came into this world!!

this attitude that seems to be growing in this country is really quite sickening!
men help create the babies, and healthy babies come from healthy moms! and those babies come in both sexes, males and females. don't think you can distance yourself from maternity care and act like you don't benefit from it!

a reply to: dawnstar

You know, this is exactly what I was expecting. Thank you.

Let's begin.

"yes, because women are too stupid to know this, right??

I am pretty sure that they ARE aware of this fact. but not all things are black and white, are they?
ever hear of jellyfish babies? "

Not every woman thinks that the tissue mass in her is a real baby. Been there, seen that. Education, a simple photo of what the child may be. I'm sorry, are you afraid that once they realize that it will grow up to be a baby, they will change their minds and "ruin" things for you? I have already stated that if an abortion is called for for whatever reason, be that an nonviable fetus, a "jellyfish baby" or if the mother is in danger, then yes I am for it. Let's continue.

"but here's the kicker of all kickers...
trumps recent healthcare revamp took away the requirement for maternity coverage the insurance policies... heck some of those men up there in congress, as well as probably some on these boards, don't see any reason why they should have to have such a thing in their insurance, they should be able to opt out...
such a thing would make it much more expensive for women to have health insurance that covered maternity care."

First, you are ASSuming I'm a full blown Trump supporter. You would be surprised.
Now, to your kickers. Nothing has passed yet. Nothing is repealed yet. Shall we save this argument for when something actually passes and is enacted? Now on to your suggestion that they took away the "requirement" for maternity care. As a man, why should I have to pay that? Why can't I opt out if I'm a man with no woman in my life, why should I be paying this extra fee? I'm sorry, that particular dog ain't gonna hunt ma'am. So, you want to pay for prostate coverage to make it cheaper for me? Watch the hatred fly ladies and gentlemen.

"let me tell you something right here and right now!! weather you are a man or a women living in this country, if your mother was able to obtain decent maternity care... you benefited from that care because she, and her doctor, made sure that you got a good start even before you came into this world!!"

First, I know but I simply can't stop myself, but it's "whether". My parents did not have health coverage when I was born, we had a local family doctor and a midwife was asked to assist in my birth. I still correspond with her today. She's 92 and still walking and working, just amazing. The total charge for my birth was $150. My dad paid it in payments. Like a health savings account would allow for.

"this attitude that seems to be growing in this country is really quite sickening!
men help create the babies, and healthy babies come from healthy moms! and those babies come in both sexes, males and females. don't think you can distance yourself from maternity care and act like you don't benefit from it!"

The father of any child should support the child and mother. As such, the father should also be "allowed" to have a say in whether or not an abortion takes place. Half of that DNA is his. I have no idea why you think there is an attitude with me about this, there should be support from the father. I know what's coming next BTW.

LET THE NAME CALLING BEGIN!!!!!!!!

a reply to: TinySickTears

Actually, one additional reply as I sat outside contemplating this.

So, the usual argument is, at what point does a baby become "conscious", hence the reason why everyone picks "26 weeks" as the cutoff point. Lets take a careful look at that for a sec.

There are really two options here.

1. Consciousness occurs magically at 26 weeks (or pick your favorite number here and insert it forward), hence the number that was chosen. How was this determined? Does the consciousness just suddenly appear? How was this test performed and how did they come to this conclusion? Does it suddenly appear at birth? When does it show up? If so, that solves one mystery of the universe, the "soul" arrives after the 26 week barrier, because of course it knows that before then it may be aborted, no sense occupying THAT body. How it knows that is quite the mystery though.

2. Consciousness starts to develop at conception and grows as the baby develops. This one takes the entire argument that the baby is just tissue completely off the table.

LET THE INSULTS BEGIN!!!

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

I'm sorry, are you afraid that once they realize that it will grow up to be a baby, they will change their minds and "ruin" things for you?

I'm beyond my child bearing years, and a widow who has no intention of ever changing my marital status, not quite sure how much of anything at this point is gonna "ruin" any thing for me... and not everyone sees a fertilized egg as a baby, nor should they. it has the potential of becoming a baby, but at that point, no, it is not a baby! and you can say that you have no problem with abortion under some conditions, ie- nonviable fetus or danger to the mother, trying to legislate such seems to lead to some bad outcomes in many cases. every pregnancy poses a risk to the mother, the best ones to decide just how much risk is too much is the doctor and the mother, not a bunch of predominantly men in washington.

now days, it will cost you $9,000 or more to just deliver the baby, possibly over $100,000 if there is complications with the baby. and I'd be very surprised if all health insurance policies didn't include prostate coverage, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't before obamacare.. the same can't be said about maternity care.

I wasn't actually saying you had the attitude, but there is an attitude prevalent now days that is rather sickening.
one the one hand, women should stay home and take care of their kids, but on the other hand, those that do, "never worked a day in their lives"...as if taking care of the kids and home isn't more than a full time job...
then there's the thing already mentioned about the maternity care, along with birth control, ect... since I assume that those who reject the idea that their health insurance should cover maternity care also reject the idea that it should also cover birth control... and to be honest with you, the only times in my life that I actually had insurance was when I was working and to be blunt... I didn't have a choice as to what that insurance covered, how good, or bad it was, weather I could still see my favorite doctor or much of anything else... just weather I wanted the insurance that my boss chose, or continue going without. and while I was that full time mom that so many claim mother should be, there wasn't any insurance since it would have cost my husband much more to include me on his policy...
and then since that mother has taken time off, doing that non-work of raising the kids and taking care of the home, she ends up many times in rather dead end jobs that really don't pay that much... if she's lucky, her husband had the desire and the ability to ensure that he had a little bit of savings built up to hold her over in case he passes away before she reaches retirement age, because if it's not there, and the kids are grown into adulthood...she is royally screwed!!!


as far as weather or not the father should have a say when it comes to an abortion... I don't know, ya see, all my pregnancies occured while I was married, me and my husband would sit down and talk about things, if he had said he didn't think he could take on the added responsibility of another child and wanted me to abort, I probably would have given into him, and if I was the one saying it, he probably would have given into me. you kind of sound like you think that a man should be able to force a women to abort, or to carry to full term, whichever he desires, without consideration of her desires, health concerns, or fears. I don't really see that as acceptable, but let me ask you this..
let's say that the man says he wants the women to carry it full term, and she doesn't want to but well, the laws side with him, and then complications arise and she happens to die... shouldn't he then be held responsible for causing her death???

a reply to: TinySickTears

Well, here's Ben Shapiro's opinion, which is probably shared by most pro-lifers:

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm sorry, you never answered my two points.

"There are really two options here.

1. Consciousness occurs magically at 26 weeks (or pick your favorite number here and insert it forward), hence the number that was chosen. How was this determined? Does the consciousness just suddenly appear? How was this test performed and how did they come to this conclusion? Does it suddenly appear at birth? When does it show up? If so, that solves one mystery of the universe, the "soul" arrives after the 26 week barrier, because of course it knows that before then it may be aborted, no sense occupying THAT body. How it knows that is quite the mystery though.

2. Consciousness starts to develop at conception and grows as the baby develops. This one takes the entire argument that the baby is just tissue completely off the table. "

Answer this please. When does this occur? When does it suddenly become unethical to terminate the pregnancy?

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

I don't believe there is any Consciousness until there is an active brain capable of utilizing it.. which eliminates conception.. the bible I believe places the point at the time of quickening (movement), and even old english and us laws often pointed to that time..
I kind of believe that the soul exists before the physical form, and it carries the consciousness, and it's the soul that matters. and, I don't see why the soul would chose to enter a life form that didn't offer it some kind of stimuli to hold it's interests... just like I don't see why one would stick around when you are talking about comatose patients... even if it was just for a few months, I think the soul would take advantage of the situation and wander off, there are other places to be! and I don't think that there is just one vessel that would hold that soul, it has many choices.
now, aren't you glad you asked me what I believed?

how about we talk about what it means to be human...
let's consider the mother first. she's alive, she has connections with other people, she has responsibilities, she has people depending on her, she has hopes, dreams, desires, fears...
new let's talk about that newly conceived eggs that just came into being inside her.. for about the first month, no one even knows it exists... isn't there some new kind of science that says that something doesn't exist till it's observed? and that little fertilized egg, I don't believe that newly conceived egg has the ability to decide that it is! at some point early in it's existence, mom will realize that it is... and weather she is happy about it or not, she will react to it. hopefully she is overjoyed about it, she will begin to think about that little fertilized egg, start acknowledging that it exists, will change her diet, begin her maternity visits to the doctor, ect. it will become more and more real to her as her stomach grows. she will start to think about what a perfect baby it will be, start preparing for it's arrival, hey, that little fertilized egg has grown, developed and not only has the mother accepted responsibility to it, but it begins to have responsibility and expectations place on it... to grow into that perfect little baby mom is dreaming of. mom starts feeling movement, and a new connection starts to develop while mom feels the little feet run across her stomach and the baby hears mom's voice... with each of these developments, that little fertilized egg becomes human!!!

a reply to: dawnstar

medlineplus.gov...

But, I'd like to see actual proof as to when consciousness takes place. Show me the study that proves it, not your opinion.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Then you are ignorant of your own political ideology. Maybe you should go read up on what socialism is and how it works.

Socialism IS violence. Period.

I do not consent. Guess what happens next? Men with guns FORCE me to consent. That is called violence.

And yes, I do pay for abortions. I have been paying taxes and into medicare my entire life.

If you and others wish to keep funding abortions, make a voluntary donation so that I don't have to. If planned parenthood is so essential, it should be able to stand on it's own without stealing money from people that don't consent. Heck, maybe you can go get Lena Dunham pregnant! Both of you could have a cool and fun abortion day together! Then when you are done you can #shoutyourabortion all over social media!