Female athletes crushed by 'women who were once men'

a reply to: kaylaluv

Thank you, I really didn't expect that.

When you can say no without needing a paragraph to justify your opinion you will be free.

The whole trans thing is weird, my mate was with a trans person for a year and it screwed him up.
He cheated on her constantly to prove he's a "real" man, but now he's still equally confused.

Probably moreso.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

cheated to prove he was a man?

lofl...cheating is no proof, women cheat too, what a jerk

Genuinely,

I've seen a number of posts jokingly (or for effect) stating "well, why don't we just get rid of categories altogether".

I actually think that's a perfect solution.

I've seen people argue that "some women can beat up men', "my female friend batted 1000" etc.
I've seen it stated repeatedly that men and women are equal, that women can do whatever men can etc.
That some trans girls are more men and some trans men are more girls.. Muscle mass this and hormones that and bone density blah...

So I say, have at it!

Let's ditch the stupid back and forth arguments and lets get to it.

Have the cream of the crop of all genders (real or imagined) duking it out. This will totally and utterly end this kind of debate for all time because either:

A) women (trans or otherwise) will be equal in every way to men. The argument that we are all equal will be entirely vindicated and we will see a huge upsurge in famous female, trans etc sports personalities and a MONUMENTAL shift in societies understanding of both sex and gender.

Or

B) women (trans or otherwise) will get completely destroyed by their (actual) male counterparts in contests where all rules are applied equally and nobody gets special dispensation and, in response, all genders (real or imaginary) will self-segregate and the problem will resolve itself, because it's not much fun being continually hammered and people would rather play with others that they have a fair chance against.


This would entirely resolve the situation and we could stop having these types of conversations for good!

I completely advocate for this. I've heard a million times how we're all equal, so lets just put it to the test and get it resolved once and for all

a reply to: Indrasweb

Yes, we could do that... OR, we could continue to have the two classes, and classify transgender people on a case-by-case basis. Doesn't seem so complicated to me.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

cheated to prove he was a man?

lofl...cheating is no proof, women cheat too, what a jerk

Yes, he felt he needed to because of the "girl" he was with. Pussies rock, and if your woman doesn't have one you'll probably try and find one.

It's a tricky situation.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And why do we have different weight classes as well as separating men and women? For the same reason we need to separate transgender athletes according to their muscle/height/weight. And since transgender people can vary so much, depending on when and how long they have been taking hormones, that's why I say we class them on a case-by-case basis.

If you were born a man you compete against men. If you were born a woman and taking male hormones you compete against men. If you were born a woman, believe you are a man, and have not done anything to make yourself more masculine, you compete against women, unless you want to compete against men.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Sounds like a flimsy excuse to me. If you don't like being with a trans person, then don't be with a trans person. Simples.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Sometimes people just need to accept that their fetish or fad isn't going to be coddled in every way they want it to be.

Okay, maybe it's just time to just drop the act of trying to play nice and come out swinging because I'm fed up with the ignorance and bull# that I usually just let roll off my back because my efforts to try and help people learn more about trans issues are more important to me than what I feel about stupid and hateful comments some people make. However, a person can only take so much before unleashing and that threshold has been crossed.

[SNIPPED]

On one hand, I can't really blame people because the media, the Internet and political correctness have painted a somewhat confusing if not bizarre conglomerate of who transgender people are when in reality most people that have had a trans family member or been trans themselves have quite a different picture.

A certain degree of misunderstanding and ignorance is to be expected compounded by the fact that "transgender" has a myriad of meanings to different people and our current language and political correctness prevents us from discussing this topic at anything less than at a macro level lest we make more refined distinctions and offend anyone. I'm sick of that too and I'm sure some of my comments and apparent elitism have probably alienated most trans people that even post here that haven't already been run off by the pervasive tone of ignorance, fear and hatred of others.

This is particularly problematic for me as someone that by default gets saddled with the transgender label and all the perceptions and presumptions that come along with that tag that are grossly unfair to who I am as a person and to my experience. I am what was once called in the distant past a "primary transsexual" and was professionally diagnosed as such when this deprecated term had only just come into use. Today we call people like I was transgender children who from birth grow up with a different gender than anatomical and somatic sex would indicate and we diagnose them with the medical term of having gender dysphoria. Taking the broad and diverse "transgender community" as a whole and contrary to the current public perception, trans kids represent maybe 10% of this demographic and it should be obvious without saying that our lives and experiences are not the same as the majority.

With that said, I find the argument or opinion that my life and experiences to be a "fad or fetish" or that I am mentally ill to be specious at best if not downright derogatory and dismissive and while these comments may not be directed at me personally, it is still hard to not take them that way sometimes if for no other reason than a feeling of compassion and empathy for others similar to me that haven't been as fortunate or had the same opportunities I have had.

[SNIPPED]

originally posted by: Paschar0
It's remarkable this is even being debated. It's so completely ridiculous to defend the idea of men competing against women is somehow OK. Reading some of the reasoning is sad and hysterical at the same time.

And your ignorance that "men are competing against women" is equally repugnant and pathetic.

It's really very simple, if you were born a man, you compete as a man in sports because that involves OTHER people too, who played by the rules their whole lives. What you decide to do on your own time, wear a dress, take hormones, chop your junk off, doesn't magically make you 100% female and therefore negates all the "fairness" arguments now doesn't it?

Does it? If this transgender girl wanted to play sports, do you really think she would do well against males or have some magical advantage over other girls? (She plays soccer on the girls team). Just how fair would your simple rule be in this case? There's an estimated 100,000 to 150,000 transgender kids in this country and some of them want to play sports. Should we just say "tough luck" because they were born with something that couldn't be helped?

Or maybe you think it's fair for this high school boy to wrestle against the girls?

Oh wait! That's what the State of Texas made him do because he was born female. Where's the fairness of your simple rule here?

but hey why bother to remain silent and be thought a fool, when you can continue to run your mouths and remove all doubt.

Maybe you should follow your own advice?

originally posted by: SmilingROB
Is there a competitive advantages to completed transexual in sport ? Probable yes if a male athlete does the change but the advantage would be years of skills from the sport. So mental skill that person had.

So I guess I am okay with completed transgenders on all their meds competiting in sports. BUT if coaches start to load their teams with transgenders for any reason then they being selected unfairly.

Where to start with this? "Completed transsexual"? I won't even go there because you're obviously ignorant (uninformed) in this area but what does training and "mental skills" have to do with sex or gender if they're mental and not physiological?

Yes, there are tons of trans people coaches are just waiting to recruit to build some imaginary super team. I'm sorry but this sounds ridiculous.

Would it be fair for a unmodified, not on hrt therapy person to compete as a women?

Of course not. Read back a few pages to read the IOC's rules and if you're really interested, visit TransAthlete.com to read the various policies and regulations for different sporting organizations, schools and universities

That list has contradicts in itself so it not the concensus of the group.

The list was multiple choice and was meant to provide contradictory options for people to choose in an effort to determine what the majority opinion was on this subject even though it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I guess so, on the surface that seems reasonable but, as the previous 9 pages of back and forth would testify; it's never going to be that simple.
You will ALWAYS have arguments about whether the classification (even on a case by case basis) is fair. What metric is used? Can the same metric be used each and every single time? Who make the final decision? Can one appeal? On what grounds? How are appeals heard? By whom? And so on..

My way is the easiest. Debate resolved and either outcome is a win!

Can you IMAGINE if it was outcome A??? That would be too utterly, amazingly delicious, i might just laugh myself silly

originally posted by: kaylaluv
People with true gender dysphoria aren't furries, and they aren't white women pretending to be black. It is not a fetish or a fad to be born with gender dysphoria, any more than it's a fetish or fad to be born with spina bifida or a cleft palate.

Spina bifida and cleft palates are physical illnesses, we're talking about psychological illnesses here and yes, species dysphoria and racial dysphoria are exactly the same underlying issue as gender dysphoria is.

a reply to: Freija

Being born a man gives you an advantage. It does not automatically make you athletic. So the argument being a mtf doesn't make you automatically amazing so all mtf should compete with females is fallacious. It's an unfair advantage.

A ftm taking male hormones has an advantage. Texas should rewrite their rules. It would be similar to females taking PEDs, they are banned for a reason.

No one should ever compete with an unfair advantage that is of their own doing.

originally posted by: IndraswebCan the same metric be used each and every single time?

My metric can be.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Umm, yeah it is my opinion.

No, I'm not scared.

I have personally seen transgender females who transitioned before puberty's permanent effects, and these people have the body mass of women. I have also seen transgender females who transitioned late in life who still have some pretty substantial muscle mass.

There is a wide variation - too wide to have a one-size-fits-all ruling.

It is said that the extremes of higher intelligence are populated mostly by males. Neuron count doesn't drop with hormone therapy, afaik, and at least a few will fall in that statistical category of uber high intellect, which will provide a boost to performance in almost any possible field.

Could just be that the man can't compete with other men and figure they will compete with women because they will have the edge.
Why not just make a new catagory and let the trans people compete with each other. They want to be accepted as different so give them their own competition.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Show me the scientific data that says someone with species dysphoria was shown to have some parts of a dog or cat's brain.

Here's some data that says a trans male (born physically female) looks to have some physical qualities of a male brain.

www.newscientist.com...

If the hard wiring of a person's brain with gender dysphoria got messed up in utero, it IS a physical illness.

originally posted by: Xenogears
It is said that the extremes of higher intelligence are populated mostly by males. Neuron count doesn't drop with hormone therapy, afaik, and at least a few will fall in that statistical category of uber high intellect, which will provide a boost to performance in almost any possible field.

Oh Jeesus effing christ on a popsicle stick. This is one of the most absurd arguments I've heard yet. Athleticism depends on physicality, not "uber high intellect". How many really smart athletes do you know? I've always been of the impression that successful athletes weren't necessarily the sharpest tool in the shed.

Statistically speaking, research has shown that most transgender children are of average intelligence or around 100 on the IQ scale where as it is generally shown that adult transgender people or those with late onset gender dysphoria are slightly above. Of course within any group there are exceptions but to come up with this neuron count business as a measure of anything having to do with athletic ability is really a stretch.

originally posted by: Xenogears

It is said that the extremes of higher intelligence are populated mostly by males. Neuron count doesn't drop with hormone therapy, afaik, and at least a few will fall in that statistical category of uber high intellect, which will provide a boost to performance in almost any possible field.

Ha ha ha ha. You're funny. That was a joke, right?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And why do we have different weight classes as well as separating men and women? For the same reason we need to separate transgender athletes according to their muscle/height/weight. And since transgender people can vary so much, depending on when and how long they have been taking hormones, that's why I say we class them on a case-by-case basis.

If you were born a man you compete against men. If you were born a woman and taking male hormones you compete against men. If you were born a woman, believe you are a man, and have not done anything to make yourself more masculine, you compete against women, unless you want to compete against men.

I think the simplest way is the way it's done now:

If you have artificially tampered with your body's hormones in any way that could alter your physical structure and athletic prowess, you don't compete in serious athletics.

Rec leagues and other avenues, of course, are open to anyone on their own basis.

a reply to: kaylaluv

By your definition most mental illnesses are actually physical illnesses. Having a physical cause does not preclude something from being a mental illness.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Freija

Being born a man gives you an advantage. It does not automatically make you athletic. So the argument being a mtf doesn't make you automatically amazing so all mtf should compete with females is fallacious. It's an unfair advantage.

Eeeeek, you were completely right until here and made your own fallacy:

It's an unfair advantage.

It's a sometimes exploitable advantage in the case of trans. It is not always simply unfair. Easy fallacy with your logic: I do not beat every female in existence simply because I'm mtf.