Female athletes crushed by 'women who were once men'

a reply to: Hazardous1408

I'll say the same thing I said in that thread: Let them compete against each other only. Former males compete against former males, former females against former females, real males against real makes, real females against real females... problem solved.

a reply to: kosmicjack

How do you interpret my idea of a solution itself as no solution? Because one way has one issue while another has another?

The same Rights would be letting 'her' compete with girls. Because that's a problem, you have what issue again with my idea of a co-ed league?

a reply to: MacK80

Seriously? Because you went on to list all the problems inherent with the "solution". Also because you have objected to every other reasonable compromise put forth so far.

And, again, this really isn't a "problem" at all. What percentage of the population is Trans-gendered? And what percentage of those want to compete athletically? It's such an anomaly it's ridiculous that it's given any accommodation at all - but it is.

a reply to: kosmicjack

Yeah, well just letting them into woman's sports has a clearly larger issues.

And the inherent 'problem' does not apply mutually. I addressed problems between male and females in co-ed sports, not even transgenders, and you can't honestly be any more pessimistic about that leading to no solution. I wasn't pointing out fatal flaws, the idea of second round draft and mandated players, would be extremely similar to how positions are drafted. You can't wait for the last quarterback, and so requiring female draft brings their own competitive dynamic without being monstrously athletic men. It could literally make money from interest. How open minded YOU are to receiving that idea, cant have no damn girls on your football game though is probably the attitude.

The small population is why it's own league is a slanted write off excuse. Try to care less please? That's obviously discrimination, or should we make black sports because they're physically more fit than white guys too and it's unfair? I suggest a medium before transgender and you lose your mind. Does addressing co-ed first sound not sound reasonable to you in the context of this conversation and the problem?

originally posted by: seasonal
Why do you resort to calling names like whore? (I stopped reading after the name calling, literally)

I don't know why I bother trying to communicate with you. I did not call you a whore. I used the word as a verb referring to your behavior of repeatedly and frequently posting transgender topics to garner flags and stars and foster outrage and support from those equally as ignorant (uninformed) on this subject. It's pandering to the lowest common denominator and I've seen none of these threads you've authored on this topic have the intention of sparking intelligent discussion but rather they seem to just be about generating controversy and antagonistic comments.

This entire matter has been blown completely out of proportion by the media as being the road to ruin and downfall of society because it sells papers and gets clicks. There's an estimated 1.4 million people that fall under the broad transgender umbrella in the U.S. This includes people that don't transition at all, people that don't medically transition and major numbers of young people and SJW's that have co-opted the transgender label for oppression/victim points and social currency. In the entire world, the actual numbers of transgender athletes is microscopic and statistically insignificant but it makes headlines and makes people's heads explode when the subject does come up. I dare anyone to come up with even 100 50 cases of transgender athletes being a problem out of SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE.

It just amazes me that people are so played and manipulated without even recognizing it. You'd think that a community like ATS with the mantra to deny ignorance would be a little bit smarter about this but sadly, I guess not?

Speaking personally as someone that was born male and has "changed sex" as a young person, I can tell you that I've never had any sort of muscular strength, physical advantage or superior build over my natal female peers even before I began HRT in my teens. Had I been athletically inclined and trained and worked out every day, I still wouldn't have been able to develop anything but "girl muscles". In the few non-sex segregated sports I have participated in, I have been equal to other women if not somewhat disadvantaged by having even lower testosterone levels than them and generally all of us except some of the Amazon types (of which I am not) were totally dominated by males so the notion that all trans people have some magic advantage doesn't hold water with me. It also goes to show that just because someone is trans that it's always automatically unfair to compete against natal females as a hard and fast rule is a complete fallacy.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Nope that doesn't work. Some trans females never developed male muscles; some trans females who transitioned later in life still have some male strength. Some trans males who have been taking testosterone for a while have built up substantial male muscle, while some trans males have not. A one size fits all rule just isn't going to work fairly here.

I think this needs to be decided on a case-by-case basis. We're not talking about millions of athletes here, so I think it's doable. You look at the individual, their past records of competition, their medical history, maybe even watch them in preliminary competitions, then make a decision on where they best fit.

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: MacK80


I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or even win an argument. I'm trying to inject some basic common sense and biology - it's about xx and xy.

You and anyone else are free to live your life to the fullest, however, the rest of the world should not be forced to revamp everything to accommodate. IMHO. You, of course, should be able to marry whomever you want and you should never be subject to discrimination. BUT...you are not exempt from the laws of nature and we shouldn't pretend that your attempts to live your life as you choose changes basic biological facts.

By all means participate in sports but do so on a level playing field. We have men's and women's categories for a reason, to make the competition more equitable and competitive, but Trans-genders would have us toss all of that out. So, here are some options - we either do away with any of the Title IX stuff at all and just simply have one competition where everyone, both sexes, competes OR one where the Trans-gendered have their own separate competition OR we keep it as it is and the Trans-gendered compete according to their chromosomes, not their gender identity.

As it stands now, the Trans-gendered community is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. That's not fair to everyone else. Why should other athletes be forced into unfair competition in order to accommodate such a narrow demographic? Is it really a victory for someone who used to be a male to defeat females? Besides gender, we also currently divide athletes up by ages to account for varying athletic abilities, why not just add Trans-gender as another category?

We divide people on SEX not GENDER. Genders mental according to scientist. Once again you are confusing SEX with something else.

Sex is the junk between your legs alone. Of course you will argue this but you would be flat wrong if you do. Good example is a Job application. it ask for SEX not GENDER. Shoudnt it ask for gender if its sex?
If the athletes body is feminine they are going to be just as weak muscle wise. Bone density changes too on Hormones btw.

Also Didnt the world REVAMP to accomadate Women in sports as well ? before? Same as when African americans joined in sports. So they get a revamp and no one else does?

a reply to: kosmicjack

They want all the same rights as everyone else and no one gives a crap about us. The only reason this is an issue is becasue it's an entirely manufactured first world problem, indicative of a declining culture with too much time and money on it's hands.

Prejudice combined with the logical fallacy, ad misericordiam, followed by a misplaced sense of importance.

You typed the exact same words in one of my transgender education threads. Your ignorance is underwhelming.

originally posted by: kosmicjack

originally posted by: MacK80
a reply to: kosmicjack

the controversy is societies fault.

It's this outlook by the Trans-gendered community that is the biggest obstacle to a workable solution.

but to a point it actually is. Humanity is partly at fault for not being open minded and not scared of anything different than the status quo.

The outlook is this particular society that puts fitting into a neat box above all else.

originally posted by: yuppa

The outlook is this particular society that puts fitting into a neat box above all else.

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMHO, this current incarnation of Western society pretty much caters to every possible niche. Granted, the current political/cultural vibe feels as though it maybe a more precarious state than ever before but then that just means everyone - from both sides - needs to compromise a little bit more. Everyone.

a reply to: MacK80

Why are the best Dart players in the world men? I know Darts isn't your standard sport, but explain this to me before I start to believe that sports isn't generally misogynistic. No trans people in Darts either. Odd how something that takes little to no physical ability is dominated by men. Bowling is dominated by men. So is Golf. Hell, computer games are dominated by men. At the end of the day, I see 'men dominating a sport' as a generalization humanity can eventually let go. What political limits that entails and how it's accomplished is another story, it needs to be in good natured competition. Not all people are the same, am I the only one questioning the idea of placing Trans-Females in both based on physical conditions and actual things we can see and measure rather than arbitrary labels and definitions?

Actually considering there is more to most sports than just the muscle and bone mass issues. For instance woman tend to be better shots with guns then men. A combination of breathing and hand eye coordination. On the other hand woman tend not to be so good with the higher calibers due to the recoil. The skill is there but there are still physical limitations that negate that. Some characteristics just cannot be ignored and despite the exceptions that occur we should not start changing the rules just to accommodate a very small percentage of people. Not to mention that men have the tendency for competition to a degree woman do not. Hence why the big televised sports tend to be mens sports because lets face it the games can get a tad physical.

a reply to: kaylaluv

You know, not everybody can have life whatever goddamned way they want it. People are going to experience inconvenience and disappointment, the trick to it is you accommodate the greatest common denominator and, if you fall outside of the law of averages, too bad.

I'd love to walk up to a stream, bend at the waist, and shout at the water until a nice fat king salmon leaped out of the current and into my arms... it ain't happening because life really doesn't give a damn how special I believe I am.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: kaylaluv

You know, not everybody can have life whatever goddamned way they want it. People are going to experience inconvenience and disappointment, the trick to it is you accommodate the greatest common denominator and, if you fall outside of the law of averages, too bad.

You're right. A trans female who still has lots of male muscle may want to compete with other trans females who don't, because she knows she can cream them easily. But it might be more fair in her specific case to make her compete with men.

Goddammit.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Again, you are making the wants of the one outweigh the rights of the many. There are 2 birth genders and 2 additional "want" genders for a total of 4 reasonably accommodatable gender differences. The line is logically drawn there (although I'm not so sure logic couldn't also be easily applied to "you are what you were born as, period and move on.)

So what's the general consensus here?

[1] That transgender people should be allowed to compete only against other transgender people
[2] That the physical parity of each transgender athlete should be individually evaluated
[3] That sex chromosomes alone should indicate what category a transgender person can compete
[4] That sex hormone levels are sufficient to decide physical parity
[5] That a transgender person should be required to have sex reassignment surgery before competing i.e. their genitals should be the deciding factor
[6] That all transgender people should be barred from athletic competition entirely
[7] That all transgender people should just shut up and stay out of sight and not upset the apple cart or status quo

What exactly would make non-transgender people happy? I'm genuinely curious. If asked, I'd vote for number 2. What would you pick and why or does someone have a better suggestion?

a reply to: Freija

I'm advocating #1, obviously. I'll point out that my doing so represents a fairly major compromise from previous positions I've taken which were solidly in the 6/7 camp. So progress, ya?

originally posted by: Morrad
Prejudice combined with the logical fallacy, ad misericordiam, followed by a misplaced sense of importance.

Where is my prejudice? I have flatly stated that Trans-gendered rights should be supported. Additionally, it's pretty indisputable that if we had actual problems in Western Civilization 2017, this wouldn't even be on the radar.

originally posted by: Morrad
one of my transgender education threads.

That says it all really.

And you can call it "ignorance" if you want but it's my opinion, which I haven't tried to couch as fact, just common sense. You can shove your opinions on others as often as you like and, on a discussion board, I am free to respond. You can say the same thing over and over again but be prepared to get the same reaction.

The real ignorance is thinking that people want to be educated on and/or forced to accept something that only a very few have to deal with on a regular basis. As opposed to just finding workable solutions and moving on. It's the constant drum beating by the Trans-gendered community, and playing the victim card, that marginalizes it further.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Freija

I'm advocating #1, obviously. I'll point out that my doing so represents a fairly major compromise from previous positions I've taken which were solidly in the 6/7 camp. So progress, ya?

You might as well not have male/female categories at all then, because you will see huge differences in the transgender only competition. The differences will be as much as men competing against women in some cases. But you don't really care about the transgender competition, so what do you care if they are grossly mismatched?

a reply to: kaylaluv

Decisions have consequences.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

This!