Legitimate claims of advanced civilization existing before 5,000BC?

a reply to: Byrd

I think the new world population took a different approach with farming, and may have not left the footprints we are looking for.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

As far as the new world goes, its not so much they chose a different approach, as it is nature set a different path.
Interestingly enough, the roots of agriculture in the old/new worlds really take off around the same time,. The onset of the younger dtyas caused people to much more extensively exploit exploit the resources around them.
Nature determined that it would be different in the new world.
Old wolrd ag and husbandry came hand in hand.
The rich grass lands of eurasia provided both humans and gazing animals ample food, its only natural that we would have learned to takie advantage the amimals hanging around.
Unlike eurasia, the new world grasses didnt provide the same quality of seeds as they did in the old world. And most of those that did make for a food source had specific environments to occupy.
The new world also had a few things that were so plentiful, that organized ag wasnt needed. Acorns, pine nuts, wild rice, berries, cactus, tules and the like.
And the intensive "tending" of those wild resources led to changes in the landscape.
The oak belt in the central cal foothills is a product of thousands of years of human intervention, as do the wild rice beds of the great lakes region and the chessapeak oysterbeds.
The places where real ag did take root, the signs are pretty clear as where and when. For the most part the plants are all invasive to everywhere except central mexico, which is where the main cultivars, beans, corn, squash, and other plants, all originate.

originally posted by: DrWily

originally posted by: Marduk
I wouldn't worry too much about it, all the earliest civilisations were based on rivers, not oceans. Though I think that pseudo historians claim its oceans, handy that, having a reason why they have no evidence.

lol... But there is still really cool stuff to be found in the oceans. Like Heracleion and possibly Dvārakā pending more substantial finds. And look at basically the entire Pacific Ocean. I bet there is crazy stuff all along the coasts east/southeast Asia, India, Pakistan, Africa, etc.

Then you've got places like Hawaii, Easter Island, and Tahiti. Isolated islands populated by fairly primitive people, but they knew how to build craft sea worthy enough to get them there. Admittedly these people weren't ancient, but it shows that ancients could probably pull it off too. Then you have Australia...

But I do agree that most of the good stuff is based along historical rivers, coastlines, etc. Stuff like Bimini road and Yonaguni Monument are probably explainable with natural processes and there is no real evidence to the contrary.

I would not pay too much attention to the innocuous and inane opinion's of some whom probably still think Henry Ford with his Nazi sympathy's created modern factor's and ignore the fact that we still know relatively little about the true history of the Phoenician peoples including those of Carthage whom actually DID use modern factory techniques to build there ship's, the Roman's actually copied them which is how they were able to field (sic) there own naval fleet and defeat the Carthaginian's at sea by playing them at there own game, the technique that the Roman's discovered when they somehow learned how the Carthaginian's had done it was to have the ship's made to a set plan, a blue print and for each craftsman to make just one part, again and again and again, these ready made part's were then simply taken what passed for a dry dock and assembled just like in a modern factory albeit without the conveyor belt's.

In your favor I would like to see a truly functional explanation for the ruin's of Poanape, Nan Modal.


There are claim's that this isolated pacific island has not one but at least two of these city's or that the city complex was once far larger and much of it is not deep beneath the waters as well as under the lagoon, the architecture is nothing too special as it is simply local materials but the size of the city would seem to prohibit it being able to self sustain with the estimated size of the population, however if the island did as is likely suffer decline due to subsidence and/or rising sea level's then this point's out that it was probably once a far larger island than today.

Human being's Somehow made it to almost all part's of the world including some of the most isolated islands in the world and settled there, so they swam of rowed there with little provision in dug out canoes according to most idea's, those ignore the possible pre European Petro Glyph's on rapa nui (Easter island - naval of the world) for example were what appear to be masted vessels are depicted, also it has to be remembered there is often a pre disposal on the part's of many so called expert's (did they carve them?, no so how are they expert's) that many such carving's could not be from before a specific date, the same justification used by many know it all's or so they believe of themselves to justify there claim's that ship's before a certain date did not exist, hmm.

Experts are ten a penny these day's, some are genuine and they usually have an open mind but other's are not and there so called knowledge is a belief system and believing does not as we are always told make something a fact.
Here is another interesting perspective on easter island.
jeanhervedaude.com...

As for ships in general, they have existed as long as man has found it convenient to travel by water, larger vessels for larger cargo's etc and while many were crude were such journeys become common place the design becomes refined and more advanced over time, the debatable oldest surviving ship (Remains of one) is about 6500 years old and was found in silt off the south coast of Britain but due to it being near to sunken forests it's proof as a ship is still a matter of argument.


Now sea level, that is a very intriguing subject to me as most theory's and models for sea level fluctuation's are constructed on fixed altitude models which do not take into account crustal rebound and altitude changes in response to overlying pressure pushing them down into the mantle, there may for example have been a significant increase far beyond the fixed models estimate in the actual current depth of areas that now lie beneath the sea but were formerly land in the mid or south Atlantic and this is due to a number of potential factor's.

The most obvious and glaring is the fact that during the glacial maximum there were huge amount's of ice, a veritable second continent of the stuff lying on top of the Nothern continent's, this of course pushed them down into the softer mantle beneath them, now of course this beg's the obvious knock on question "where does all that displaced mantle material and magma go", well it is not a fast realignment but it goes under the thinner (And lighter with all that water frozen on the continent's the oceans well a little less than they did before) ocean plate's and PUSHES THEM UPWARD significantly in some regions perhaps even forcing large sea mount's to break the surface and become long living island's.

At least that is what I believe, were I live in Britain the north of the our country and Scandinavia are slowly rising out of the ocean as the underlying crust rebound's slowly since the end of the ice age, there are many places in Scandinavia though were this is happened much faster and there are shoreline's now hundreds of feet above the water line, back in Britain though the south of the country is slowly sinking as our plate is tilting, in part this is likely due to the southern plate area being depressed while the northern plate area is rebounding.

Now one other potential and I believe genuinely pertinent factor is the possibility of a cataclysmic event which may have taken place in the south Atlantic and pacific sometime within the last 15000 years, I believe that the south american continent or most of it actually tilted in a sea saw like motion pitching the eastern seaboard of south american including area's that were formerly land deep into the ocean while the western seaboard of coast mountain's was pushed upward, the mechanism may have been a massive volcanic release of sub crustal gas and magma in the Atlantic as well as the natural downward increase in pressure upon the young and relatively thin ocean plates by the increasing ocean volume and it's corresponding weight while on it's western sea board the south american plate's are probably riding over some pretty ancient ocean crust, crust which itself may once have been a proto continent and if -

a reply to: LABTECH767

- so then would have been much thicker than the standard average thickness even for the ancient pacific plate's, this mechanism would mean that like a car hitting a curb as the south american plates drift westward they may have mounted the thicker plate and tiled the western seaboard upward in a single cataclysmic event.

If I am correct and despite Heart's and other's admittedly very knowledgeable understanding of the site's then perhaps tiwanaku and puma punku or were they are now once sat upon the shore of an ocean fjord and not a mountain lake, if so then the animals and plant's would be very similar to those found at sea level given the short period they have been forced to adapt to there change in environment but as the water of the fjord slowly desalinated they would have become fresh water variety's of the same animal's now found at the coast.

If the event was cataclysmic then it would have made all the tsunami's we have ever seen or heard of look small by comparison in both the Atlantic and the Pacific, washing inland for perhaps hundreds of miles both opposing shore line's then sloshing back and finishing the already destructive cataclysm of the massive uplift event, perhaps it could even be regarded as an ELE.

But until proper research is done not just by oceanographic institutes of the world but by full geological survey's of the crustal plates the true form of the sea and coastline during this epoch can only be estimated from a limited data set, it is not a fixed in stone model though but one that is highly flawed due to the limited date from which it has been compiled and I for one am quite proud of my nation's long oceanographic history.


Now just think on this as a potential scenario, the great lakes ice dam collapse would have been devastating enough for any coastal community in the Atlantic and indeed globally but an event like this would have destroyed entire cultures in an instant, only the hunter gatherers and uneducated shepherds in the hill's of the hinterland would have survived to pick up the pieces including the lost art of ship building?.

India with reference to Dwarka (to use the english mis spelling) has many sunken ruin's, perhaps entire country's now beneath the waves as the Indian plate is still driving northward into Asia and the Himalayas thrust up in this crumple zone are only part of the story, India itself is another example of crustal tilting, while the ocean plates are much thicker and older to the south of India compared to those to the East of south america India is riding into and indeed over a true continent to the north which of course mean's the pressure is indeed enough for such an event though India's has probably been much more sedate and with few or far smaller ocean disturbances as a consequence, that said story's of sunken wall's, temples in the sea etc are common place in part's of India and probably based on genuine event's and sighting's.

This little article and study from Australia I found when I went searching for anything to back my own hair brained idea's up but it is worth reading even if it does not paint a cataclysmic scenario.
www.sciencealert.com...

Of course if this event did happen recently along with a depression of the atlantic plate's to deeper sub post glacial ocean level's then this may have affected a larger area of the atlantic as well, just maybe all those crazy storys about citys lost near the azores have some truth after all.
www.goldenageproject.org.uk...

a reply to: LABTECH767

ATS user "TheWayISeeIt" (hasn't been around in years) and I did a couple of threads together talking about the possibility of canting and rocking in response to cometary impact and icemelt.

long story sort: i don't disagree with you, and think its an interesting idea. Im sure sea level maps aren't accounting for solid earth movement.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Have you read some of the stuff about the proposal that natives created the rain forest through the same cultivation? I think they go on to talk about the massive grasslands being created by natives (and reinforced by bison).

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

(snip)
Unlike eurasia, the new world grasses didnt provide the same quality of seeds as they did in the old world. And most of those that did make for a food source had specific environments to occupy.
The new world also had a few things that were so plentiful, that organized ag wasnt needed. Acorns, pine nuts, wild rice, berries, cactus, tules and the like.
And the intensive "tending" of those wild resources led to changes in the landscape.
The oak belt in the central cal foothills is a product of thousands of years of human intervention, as do the wild rice beds of the great lakes region and the chessapeak oysterbeds.
The places where real ag did take root, the signs are pretty clear as where and when. For the most part the plants are all invasive to everywhere except central mexico, which is where the main cultivars, beans, corn, squash, and other plants, all originate.

Well said. We do find traces of farming and farms, particularly for civilizations and for large cultures (like the Mound Builders) were farming was based on plots instead of managing wild areas. We find the latter traces as well... but note that managed wild areas don't provide as much food for a culture or a civilization as a farm does.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: LABTECH767
If I am correct and despite Heart's and other's admittedly very knowledgeable understanding of the site's then perhaps tiwanaku and puma punku or were they are now once sat upon the shore of an ocean fjord and not a mountain lake, if so then the animals and plant's would be very similar to those found at sea level given the short period they have been forced to adapt to there change in environment but as the water of the fjord slowly desalinated they would have become fresh water variety's of the same animal's now found at the coast.

If the event was cataclysmic then it would have made all the tsunami's we have ever seen or heard of look small by comparison in both the Atlantic and the Pacific, washing inland for perhaps hundreds of miles both opposing shore line's then sloshing back and finishing the already destructive cataclysm of the massive uplift event, perhaps it could even be regarded as an ELE.

It would have left some very classic geological evidence of extreme catstrophism - in the main, you'd have a slip-strike fault that ran for miles straight up and a shattering of mountains along the plate associated with such force. Because such things don't occur in a vacuum, you'd get the Ring of Fire responding and I would lay money on somewhere a supervolcano field developing.
f
Slip strike faults are easy to see once you learn what they look like (and they're everywhere.) Fold uplifts are a slow process simply because rock doesn't deform quickly.

Well, the polar ice caps are melting and with time will reveal some evidence of Atlantis.

but by then our planet will be experiencing extreme hot/cold and will either burn or freeze all life form.