Legitimate claims of advanced civilization existing before 5,000BC?

This is always something I've thought about, but it has always been fanciful imagination on my part. I recently was watching a old cartoon/anime called The Mysterious Cities of Gold, and it got me reading about ancient accounts of Atlantis, Mu, etc.

However, when I dig into those subjects, it's hard to find legit proof that these things actually existed. Due to the accepted nature of plate tectonics, it's basically impossible for a continent to sink under the ocean in short geological time spans. Which leads me to the real question...

Is there ANY evidence for advanced civilization existing before the Sumerians (or even Minoans)? Or is this all just speculation based on information from long dead writers?

I know Michael Tellinger is a bit of a crackpot... But I did read something about a insanely long (22,000ft deep) ancient mine shaft found by De Beers and promptly covered up. That sounds interesting. That's the kind of stuff I'm interested in. Sources that are recent enough to potentially investigate.

The Danube Valley civilization is one of the oldest civilizations known in Europe. It existed from between 5,500 and 3,500 BC in the Balkans and covered a vast area, in what is now Northern Greece to Slovakia (South to North), and Croatia to Romania (West to East).

During the height of the Danube Valley civilization, it played an important role in south-eastern Europe through the development of copper tools, a writing system, advanced architecture, including two storey houses, and the construction of furniture, such as chairs and tables, all of which occurred while most of Europe was in the middle of the Stone Age. They developed skills such as spinning, weaving, leather processing, clothes manufacturing, and manipulated wood, clay and stone and they invented the wheel. They had an economic, religious and social structure.

One of the more intriguing and hotly debated aspects of the Danube Valley civilization is their supposed written language. While some archaeologists have maintained that the ‘writing’ is actually just a series of geometric figures and symbols, others have maintained that it has the features of a true writing system. If this theory is correct, it would make the script the oldest written language ever found, predating the Sumerian writings in Mesopotamia, and possibly even the Dispilio Tablet , which has been dated 5260 BC.

a reply to: DrWily

Santorini is an island remnant of a volcano in the mediterranean.

Santorini is one of the Cyclades islands in the Aegean Sea. It was devastated by a volcanic eruption in the 16th century BC, forever shaping its rugged landscape. The whitewashed, cubiform houses of its 2 principal towns, Fira and Oia, cling to cliffs above an underwater caldera (crater).

Some think it may be associated with the legend of Atlantis. Who knows how far back the island history went before it was destroyed in the eruption?

image search

@ancienthistorian That's super cool! I was completely unaware of the Danube Valley Culture. Based just the little bit I've read, it seems like they had a egalitarian culture similar to Indus Valley. I'll need to look into this more...

@intrptr Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Santorini and Crete. I'd love to visit those places for myself someday. The idea that Santorini was Atlantis seems to fix Plato's descriptions, especially in light of this:

upload.wikimedia.org...

It seems like they had a lot of tech that was lost and not used again for 500 to 1500 years.

originally posted by: ancienthistorian

The Danube Valley civilization is one of the oldest civilizations known in Europe. It existed from between 5,500 and 3,500 BC in the Balkans and covered a vast area, in what is now Northern Greece to Slovakia (South to North), and Croatia to Romania (West to East).

During the height of the Danube Valley civilization, it played an important role in south-eastern Europe through the development of copper tools, a writing system, advanced architecture, including two storey houses, and the construction of furniture, such as chairs and tables, all of which occurred while most of Europe was in the middle of the Stone Age. They developed skills such as spinning, weaving, leather processing, clothes manufacturing, and manipulated wood, clay and stone and they invented the wheel. They had an economic, religious and social structure.

One of the more intriguing and hotly debated aspects of the Danube Valley civilization is their supposed written language. While some archaeologists have maintained that the ‘writing’ is actually just a series of geometric figures and symbols, others have maintained that it has the features of a true writing system. If this theory is correct, it would make the script the oldest written language ever found, predating the Sumerian writings in Mesopotamia, and possibly even the Dispilio Tablet , which has been dated 5260 BC.

Just fixed that link for you,

I think there is enough evidence out there to hint at advanced civilizations prior to 5,000 B.C., but that begs the question of exactly HOW advanced. My working theory is that there were several civilizations which achieved a near-Renaissance level of advancement complete with advanced mathematics and astronomy, and even a world-wide trade network. I believe you can make a case for such a civilization prior to 12,000 BC which was more or less destroyed by the Great Flood. It wasn't Noah's Flood. It didn't cover the Earth, and it certainly did not kill off everyone, but it was big enough to inundate the sea coasts where this civilization was centered. Look under the sea in places like India and Japan and you can find remnants of those cultures. Many books have covered how this may have happened. I suggest Graham Hancock's Underworld as an interesting place to start. This kind of civilization could account for some of the anomalies we have found over the years.

But as for a modern civilization with skyscrapers, interstate highways, internal combustion engines, electricity and space travel? Nah. I see no evidence of that at all. We've never made it quite this far before.

Just fixed that link for you,

Thanks m8

a reply to: schuyler

I agree with you on all points. But I'm always on the lookout on the off-hand chance, haha.

Stuff like the Baigong pipes and (as you mentioned) the Yonaguni Monument are interesting to me. I'll check out Underworld, thanks for the tip!

I need couple of question answered before I can tackle your question, like what exactly do you mean by advance civilization, what is your definition of civilization. is it urbanization?? literature?? a stratified society with complex political organization??..keep in mind many here will say advanced culture but no advance civilizations before 5000 B.C
Is Gobleki Tepe an example of advance civilization or advance culture, these are some of the question that need to be dealt with.

a reply to: Spider879

I'm open. I'm just looking for anything that upsets the established theories of the cradle of civilization. I'm not expecting to find rockets where the tower of babel once stood, but anything where technology was used, lost, then used again is interesting to me.

Stuff like the antikythera mechanism and possibly Bagdad batteries.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DrWily

Santorini is an island remnant of a volcano in the mediterranean.

Santorini is one of the Cyclades islands in the Aegean Sea. It was devastated by a volcanic eruption in the 16th century BC, forever shaping its rugged landscape. The whitewashed, cubiform houses of its 2 principal towns, Fira and Oia, cling to cliffs above an underwater caldera (crater).

Some think it may be associated with the legend of Atlantis. Who knows how far back the island history went before it was destroyed in the eruption?

image search

Sorry, but Plato said categorically that Atlantis was west of the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibralta), whereas the Aegean Sea is east of it. You cannot cherry-pick features of Plato's account that fit some candidate locality for Atlantis whilst ignoring those that are inconsistent with it. It does not matter how old the culture on Santorini was - it simply does not match the geographic location described by Plato. You can argue all you want about the possibility of some of his details (which he got from Solon) being wrong. But, if you do, you are cherry-picking the evidence, which is not acceptable scientific practice.

We'll just have to wait and see what's under the ice in Antarctica...

originally posted by: micpsi

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: DrWily

Santorini is an island remnant of a volcano in the mediterranean.

Santorini is one of the Cyclades islands in the Aegean Sea. It was devastated by a volcanic eruption in the 16th century BC, forever shaping its rugged landscape. The whitewashed, cubiform houses of its 2 principal towns, Fira and Oia, cling to cliffs above an underwater caldera (crater).

Some think it may be associated with the legend of Atlantis. Who knows how far back the island history went before it was destroyed in the eruption?

image search

Sorry, but Plato said categorically that Atlantis was west of the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibralta), whereas the Aegean Sea is east of it. You cannot cherry-pick features of Plato's account that fit some candidate locality for Atlantis whilst ignoring those that are inconsistent with it. It does not matter how old the culture on Santorini was - it simply does not match the geographic location described by Plato. You can argue all you want about the possibility of some of his details (which he got from Solon) being wrong. But, if you do, you are cherry-picking the evidence, which is not acceptable scientific practice.

Sorry, but you can't use what Plato said as scientific evidence either. It's all complete hearsay. He knew about a guy (Solon) who talked to a guy....Given that we have concrete evidence of a massive explosion on Santorini that is backed up by many accounts of refugees arriving on Crete and Egypt, and zero evidence of anything remotely like Atlantis as described beyond the Pillars of Hercules, I see no reason why we cannot speculate that Santorini is a likely possibility. Plato's evidence would not stand up in court. That Santorini exploded would.

All the proof you could ever need is seen in religious books, and ancient mono/megaliths

originally posted by: DrWily
a reply to: Spider879

I'm open. I'm just looking for anything that upsets the established theories of the cradle of civilization. I'm not expecting to find rockets where the tower of babel once stood, but anything where technology was used, lost, then used again is interesting to me.

Stuff like the antikythera mechanism and possibly Bagdad batteries.

That's gonna be a toughie, there is always the possibility that some one some where before 5k B.C made an advance discovery that was either lost or was not utilized beyond the tribe, but difficult to ascertain, advance concepts would not be soo unusual like the Ishango bones a lunar calendar of 26,000 yrs ago but that would in all likely-hood fall into the advance culture category rather than advance civilization, I think if we can push back the time line for farming and settled communities we might just find what you are searching for.

a reply to: DrWily

Go read some Graham Hancock.

a reply to: schuyler

This planet has been here for an estimated 4.5 billion years, will be according to some estimates, habitable for about 2 billion more years.

The current modern humans have been here around 200,000 years.

If humans went extinct tomorrow, how long would it take for natural processes to erase virtually all traces of our modern civilization?

originally posted by: ausername
a reply to: schuyler

This planet has been here for an estimated 4.5 billion years, will be according to some estimates, habitable for about 2 billion more years.

The current modern humans have been here around 200,000 years.

If humans went extinct tomorrow, how long would it take for natural processes to erase virtually all traces of our modern civilization?

Neither you nor I know the full answer to that question, but postulating it does not prove previous civilizations existed. If you look at the geology of continents, my best guess would be from fifty million to a couple hundred million years. that's based on plate tectonics. As plates eventually fold beneath one another, all traces of civilization would likely be lost as they "melted" beneath the moving plates. Any city ruins, for example, would be consumed by the Ring of Fire.

Although MODERN humans are about 200,000 years old, the genus Homo is far older, with Homo erectus, clearly a near-modern variant that had fire and could play a mean game of soccer, emerging 2 million years ago and Homo hablis about 4 million years ago. Beyond that you need to account for the evolution of primates and by the time you get back 10 million years you have some very primitive apes, though the first primates showed up probably about 50 million years ago. These fossils have been found. It's not idle speculation. For that matter, we have thousands of dinosaur fossils from 60-100 million years ago. Alas, no human-like beings back that far. So saying something like, "The Earth is really, really old, so there might have been some human-like beings a billion years ago who had an advanced civilization." has no basis in fact at all.

Someone built Gobleki Tepe and that took no small part of effort and organization; it is older than any 5 to 7000 years.. so say the big guys...

During the last major ice age it stands to reason that what we would consider settlements would have been coastal even as the majority of today's populations live close to a coast. Most papers I have read say the ocean levels were approximately 300 feet lower on average....some places more and some places less.

The ice age ended and as the water rose those coastal civilizations would have been flooded...some with dramatic effect. What is weird now is...... there are ancient harbors where no boats can anchor because the sea has receded to such an extent that you would have to walk a long way to get your big toe even slightly wet. One answer to this receding water is the spring board effect that a land mass has when you remove a mile high covering of ice. It takes time but the land mass that was once covered does rise up to the new occasion/environment.

Some ice dam burst and a wall of water 50 to 100 feet high come crashing into your tee pee/mud hut/brick home/ you can forget even leaving your barbecue pit as evidence you were once there..

At this stage and through records it would appear that it has taken our version of civilization some where between 5 and 7000 years to reach this present peak of development..

If we accept the figure of 200,000 years (although some say modern man has been around for only 40,000) 7 X 6 = 42 or within the last 42,000 years that gives us a time frame of a possible 6 advanced civilizations.. However the pickens for survival as far as hunter gathers were undoubtedly much easier as far as eatable game way back when... Game is not static and moves from pasture to pasture for sustenance so you would think way back when so did those who hunted.. We as a species seem to be very smart at doing things the easy way.. I have to blame women and kids for that or I would not be surprised if men were still living in caves..

From what I can tell, approx every 10,000 years the globe trotting ice ages our planet has, can completely account for a lot of these civilizations destruction or watering down to pure survival.

It has certainly played a huge role in forcing mass migration and forcing humans or different cultures / even subspecies together in to small pockets of land for the sake of survival. This has especially come to light with recent DNA tests.

Remember expansive culture and civilization is a luxury. Humans quite quickly go back to the very basics when times get tough.