Legitimate claims of advanced civilization existing before 5,000BC?

originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: flyandi

careful
your beliefs will get you raked over the coals
in a conspiracy forum....

you cant share anything that's not 100 percent correct
and peer reviewed

don't come here to share your opinions
only cold hard facts will be tolerated
or you will be ridiculed and insulted

a proud moment in any ATS thread
when anyone sharing woo woo ideas
is cut down and ridiculed as the moron they are
what an incentive for more member to join eh ?

God bless ATS right ?

It only matters if you give a s*** what other people say. Post whatever you feel is right. The anal Squad is always going to show up to poop all over people's posts. The problem is they forget that they are the ones who have to wipe after words not me

a reply to: ExVoto

The anal Squad

lol

originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: flyandi

careful
your beliefs will get you raked over the coals
in a conspiracy forum....

you cant share anything that's not 100 percent correct
and peer reviewed

don't come here to share your opinions
only cold hard facts will be tolerated
or you will be ridiculed and insulted

a proud moment in any ATS thread
when anyone sharing woo woo ideas
is cut down and ridiculed as the moron they are
what an incentive for more members to join eh ?

God bless ATS right ?

You can share whatever you want just fine. Just don't try to sell it as fact(legitimate, proof, truth, etc) when it is not. If you post a woo woo idea, then simply say so.

originally posted by: ExVoto

originally posted by: kibric
a reply to: flyandi

careful
your beliefs will get you raked over the coals
in a conspiracy forum....

you cant share anything that's not 100 percent correct
and peer reviewed

don't come here to share your opinions
only cold hard facts will be tolerated
or you will be ridiculed and insulted

a proud moment in any ATS thread
when anyone sharing woo woo ideas
is cut down and ridiculed as the moron they are
what an incentive for more member to join eh ?

God bless ATS right ?

It only matters if you give a s*** what other people say. Post whatever you feel is right. The anal Squad is always going to show up to poop all over people's posts. The problem is they forget that they are the ones who have to wipe after words not me

ATS isn't simply a conspiracy site. It has evolved (hence the differing forums). Discussion points and beliefs are fine as long as stated that is what they are. When stated as fact, you have to expect people to pull them apart if they are false statements.

If you go in the Science forum and make outlandish claims about the magnetic power of paint, Phage (or similar) will pull you apart (and rightly so). Equally, if you come in the Ancient Civ forum and make outlandish claims, Marduk or similar will do exactly the same.

Make clear it is pure speculation and you won't get so savaged!

in that context it's all speculation because there is no evidence what so ever. We built civilizations from one found tablet - because we "assume" that if they could do that, they had to have a full fledged modern society - which might be true or not.

Everyone makes claims, scientist, scholars, peoples, etc - it's just that we put more weight to those from a certain group and start absorbing them as "facts" - with little to no verification - or with verification which is constantly questioned and eventually replaced with a new "fact" or evolved in it's definition.

There is nothing wrong with it considering we slowly building an understanding that is constantly questioned.

But back to this thread .. my believe is pure speculation, created from my mind based on my modern observation and my constant question "how did people act and live 15k years ago". Was it really that simple or way more complicated..

originally posted by: ThatHappened
Mr. Marduk, if one accounts for the solstices in relationship to
the alignment of the main structure, it must be around 20k
years old. The stars reveal the possible truth but it is
uncomfortable for mainstream scientists to wrap their
brains around it and accept.

The pyramid might have the same alignment but I don't know
but the Solar gate does.


a reply to: Marduk

Archaeastronomers are mainstream scientists

The man who claimed Tiwanalu, was 17,000 years old was Edmund Kiss, a Nazi, who was a member of the SS

So on your side you have the claims of an unqualified Nazi, who stated that the site was built 17,000 years ago by prehistoric Nordic Thulians (ancient Nazi white people), in order to claim that Nazis are the Master race
Whereas on my side I have hundreds of radiocarbon dates and modern archaeologists who have based the dating on real science and archaeology

You really want to persist in your claims, don't let anyone dissuade you Mr Hitler

The lack of real data makes any claims just theory,
and until a legitimate study of the site is done,
we have to rely on old Nazis to measure it for us.

BTW, the Solar Pillar is quite curious as is nearby Puma
Punku, both intriguing sites for a real study.

a reply to: Marduk

a reply to: flyandi

I think that stories of advanced technology found in ancient times are fascinating and there are indeed examples of ancient civilizations that have achieved things that we have not. But so far all I've been able to find are examples, and none of them related to what we associate with technology today.

The thing that separates us from ancient civilizations is our ability to retain information. Several key advancements in the last 600 years have contributed to this advantage... The printing press, widespread availability of books, scientific method, peer review, widespread establishment of educational institutions, so on and so forth. More recent times have seen the development of mass media, computers, and finally a global internet that makes information sharing easier than ever before.

In studying various historical dark ages, there seems to be one thing in common. Something happens that weakens civilization's ability to retain information. Like, the Minoans appeared to have technology that was on-par with the late Roman Republic, but all that stuff was lost... Likely because Linear A vanished as a writing system and Linear B didn't last very long.

This is an Achilles' heel in any claims of widespread advanced technology found in ancient times. Now, find me one of these things buried at an ancient site... Now you've got my attention.

originally posted by: ThatHappened
The lack of real data makes any claims just theory,
and until a legitimate study of the site is done,
we have to rely on old Nazis to measure it for us.

BTW, the Solar Pillar is quite curious as is nearby Puma
Punku, both intriguing sites for a real study.

a reply to: Marduk

This is not a lack of real data






This is scientific proof that the site is not 17,000 years old.

So now
1. you don't have to rely on old Nazis
2. A legitimate study has been done

Where are you going to go with this now, are you going to claim the hundreds of Radio carbon dates are wrong or are you going to claim that there is a big cover up and the Nazis are telling the truth

Either way, you just showed everyone that your claims are intellectually redundant

Alright so there are numbers showing some fact about the stonework,
but an archaeologically based theory asserts that around AD 400,
Tiwanaku went from being a locally dominant force to a predatory state.
But the ancient flood covered up everything until recently,
around 1989. Since then mine is the only satisfactory conclusions
about it because why would peoples build their structures oblique
to the summer sunrise and the winter sunrise except that they
built their structures randomly oriented, not likely.

The 'facts' state it was active in 1000 before the common era, and
why not add a few thousand years while you're in there aging the
civilization. Their 'Wall of Heads" is extremely enlightening I think
as a key to understanding them.


a reply to: Marduk

originally posted by: ThatHappened
The 'facts' state it was active in 1000 before the common era, and why not add a few thousand years while you're in there aging the civilization.

Because that's the most ridiculous thing ever! Heck, Apollo 11 landed on the moon in 1969.. While we are at it, lets just add 100 years to that. Ah yes, the Victorian Space Age.

originally posted by: ThatHappened Since then mine is the only satisfactory conclusions
about it [/post]

1, it isn't your theory, you stole it from Graham Hancock, who got it from the Nazi's
2, your conclusions ignores both the facts and the science
3. Tiwanaku is aligned to the cardinal directions, North, South, East, West
4, No ancient flood has affected Tiwanaku, its 13,000 feet above sea level

Seeing as apparently, you don't know the first thing about the site, you should probably take the time to find out, rather than wasting all our time with another reply, which just serves to illustrate how bad both your ideas and your sources are.

a reply to: schuyler

That is the best post I have ever seen regarding this debate. Bravo, and thanks!

Marduk, one fact remains: The skill they had to work granite
is only approached by the ancient Egyptians, and far beyond
any pre-Columbian tribe.

a reply to: ThatHappened

Advanced? No. But civilization? Probably. There was a pretty good cleaning of the surface in most of Europe, North America, and Asia. Scoured clean by glaciers. Coastal areas....inundated. River basins buried under silt. We can only dig so much, and whats underwater is beyond our current ability (for the price).

But im sure hunter gatherers would want central trading. There are valid theories that the american natives farmed buffalo, elk, and deer by shaping the land around them, and managing it. Annual burns of grasslands to keep trees at bay. Much of the forest throughout the west of appalachia was burned for bison grazing. Same with the forested areas up to texas hill country. Our grasslands were made as much through burning as grazing. And the herds provided what they needed throughout the US, Northern Mexico, and Canada. To me, this is civilization. BUt you don't see the footprint from it. They didn't domesticate their animals, they farmed them on the land organically. A completely different concept. I wonder if they had this skill set before they arrived here, or Berengia? Would they have farmed mammoths across the taiga? Helped keep the trees down by doing annual burns?