Ayaan Hirsi Ali: 'Islam Is Not a Religion of Peace'

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I was sticking to the topic of the thread.

I acknowledged that Islam along with the other Abrahamic faiths, Judaism and Christianity, are far from "peaceful".

I was also adhering to the principles of this site: denying ignorance.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Just be real. You don't care about Islam modernizing. You just want an excuse to oppose us.

Why is it always an "us vs them" mentality with you?
It gives me the impression that you see people like myself and ElectricUniverse as an enemy or something.
Do you not consider yourself an American?

Because there are Muslims in every demographic and Muslims who believe or reject virtually every ideological interpretation out there.

Yes but the problem we are dealing with are percentages that subscribe to a particular set of ideals. Please don't try and muddy the waters by trying to deflect away from the violence YOUR peers are committing.

I'm interested to hear what if anything you have personally done to try and effect positive change inside Islam.
Other than playing the victim online...

Maybe all religions that have apocalyptic beliefs should be banned.

Seems unhealthy to me.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
Here is another fact, Muslims who decide to leave the Islamic faith are supposed to be beheaded if they don't repent and continue to bow to Islam.

1)
Chapter: Ruling on one who apostatizes
(1)
باب الْحُكْمِ فِيمَنِ ارْتَدَّ
Abu Burdah said:
A man who turned back from Islam was brought to Abu Musa. He invited him to repent for twenty days or about so. Muadh then came and invited him (to embrace Islam) but he refused. So he was beheaded.
...

sunnah.com...

You investigate well but the facts that you claim are true, are simply not. The hadiths are like Christian Papel Decrees over centuries written by people obcessed with burning witches, condeming Jews and wars of conquest. So instead of maniacally trying to justify your own hatred by digging up crazy hadiths written by countless dirt bags over the last 1500 years go to a mosque open day and voice your concerns. I am sure you will find people that will help you understand that the vast majority of Muslums are peace loving and caring. That the hadiths are no longer enforced in todays modern societies. The vast majority of Muslums are only interested in the Koran itself.

A bit of warning though. Over 450,000 children (UN figure) were murdered in Iraq from sanctions over WMD that didn't exist. So rather than ride a white horse into a mosque claiming that everyone elses but your own excretion doesn't smell, have a bit of common sense and at least pretend that you have at least a little remorse about their recent tragedies as well.

And please try educate yourself better by staying away from sites that are just manifesting your hatred. Once you have achieved a normalized point of view (and I believe you are intelligent so can achieve it), suggest you read the page at this site to really understand why terrorism exists. The terrorism exist to exterminate the Islam religion.

Love.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Just be real. You don't care about Islam modernizing. You just want an excuse to oppose us.

US.

Seems to me that is the kind of thinking that human beings need to stop.

Associating their personal identity with their religion.

Not just Muslims, but Christians too.

originally posted by: glend
ElectricUniverse So rather than ride a white horse into a mosque claiming that everyone elses but your own excretion doesn't smell, have a bit of common sense and at least pretend that you have at least a little remorse about their recent tragedies as well. .

Sarcastic condescension is a poor teaching tool. It's often perceived as hostility.

a reply to: Miracula2

Thank you for pointing that out. I will try alleviate that side of my nature.

a reply to: gladtobehere

Denying ignorance really? First of all, do you have any idea why there is an Old Testament and a New Testament? The New Testament is about the teachings and the life of Jesus Christ, who came to Earth to change the old ways. That's why Jesus Christ didn't go about with a sword raiding caravans, beheading men who surrendered, or taking sex slaves and other slaves from the conquered people.

The only prophet of Islam did participate in raiding caravans, beheading men who surrendered, took sex slaves and other slaves, and took a fifth of the "booty". Mohammed always had the best pick of the "booty" from the raids. There was no prophet of Islam that changed those old ways, which is why we keep seeing more and more Muslims turning to the fundamentalist radical ways.

a reply to: glend

My concern is not out of hatred, but out of being tired of seeing every week some maniac Muslim extremist end innocent lives, and many people in the left, like yourself want to ignore this.

As for smelling anyone excretion, you seem unable to do so of yourself. I have posted from the Quran, the Sunnah, and the Hadith.

Sunnah (sunnah, سنة, Arabic: [sunna], plural سنن sunan [sunan]) is the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, as well as various reports about Muhammad's companions.[1][2] Along with the Quran (the holy book of Islam), the Sunnah makes up the two primary sources of Islamic theology and law.[1][3] The Sunna is also defined as "a path, a way, a manner of life"; "all the traditions and practices" of the Islamic prophet that "have become models to be followed" by Muslims.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

A hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎‎ ḥadīth, plural: ahadith, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīth[3]) is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.[3] The term comes from Arabic meaning a "report", "account" or "narrative". Hadith are second only to the Quran in developing Islamic jurisprudence,[4] and regarded as important tools for understanding the Quran and commentaries (tafsir) written on it. Some important elements of traditional Islam, such as the five salat prayers, are mentioned in hadith.[5]
...

en.wikipedia.org...

As for the 450,000 Iraqi children who died. You do forget that that happened under former President Bill Clinton, and it happened also because the UN instead of keeping "the food for oil exchange" that was supposed to occur to feed Iraqi children, the UN was doing other dealings which today is known as the "food for oil scandal". Several UN officials were caught as partaking in the scandal which enriched UN thugs, and allowed Saddam to acquire banned military equipment, meanwhile Iraqi children were dying. Even the son of Kofi Annan was caught making money from the "food for oil scandal" meanwhile Iraqi children were dying. So it seems that you are totally oblivious as to the truth behind that scandal. If you want to smell anyone's excretion, start with your own, because you are full of it.

The U.N. Oil for Food scandal
UN oil-for-food chief took Saddam bribes

Now, are you going to keep trying to derail the thread with lies? Stop trying to derail the thread. BTW, the Qur'an itself has many examples that are also found in the Hadith and the Sunna. Two of the Qur'an links i gave mentioned that Muhammed made "booty taken from caravan raided legal". One of the links talks about part of what happened at the invasion of Banu Qurayza.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

All religions cause people to do horrible things. None but the devout or sociopathic can commit themselves so fully to atrocity.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

A UN member resigned saying the the food for oil exchange would not even feed a small dog much less a child. The bombing of Iraq's last powered milk plant for children was intentional which was advertised in media as the succesful bombing of a WMD plant, the confiscation of baby food being imported into the country, the intentional bombing of Iraqs water supply filters leaked in senate report to cause disease and malnutrition. etc etc

It all made me think. Who was the bad guys in this world and who were the good guys.

The truth is, hate causes more hatred. Only love can conquer hatred.

The GOD of USURY is attacking the Islam faith because it denies usury.

You are me before I awoke. Open your eyes to the madness my friend.

a reply to: glend

You bet.

a reply to: glend

So you keep on trying to derail the thread... Who knew right?... I can see you are mad... So posting what the Qur'an, the Hadith, and Sunna say is because of some "gof of usury you made up?... Talk about madness... Last i checked the murders, rapes, and other villanous deeds done in various Jihads throughout the world were being caused because Muslim fundamentalists/radicals are following by the letter the old ways of their prophet Muhammed/Muhammad... Not because some "god of usury" you made up in your mind...

a reply to: richapau

Riiight, I forgot... Is not like atheists have never committed atrocities themselves... Heck, who knew that Karl Marx, an atheist who hated Jewish people as much as Hitler did state that all religion had to be abolished, which implemented the most oppressive dictatorships all around the world. Any idea how many people were murdered by communism? 100 million - 160 million in the 20th and part of the 21st century. There are still communist regimes like China which oppress religious people. So go figure.

I keep seeing some members try to derail the thread showing complete ignorance to the fact that atheists have also committed horrendous atrocities.

This thread is not about atheists still wanting to abolish all religions. The thread isn't about the "oil for food scandal". The thread is not about hatred towards all Muslism either. But it is about the fact that without reform within Islam we will continue to see an increase in Muslim fundamentalists/fanatics murdering innocent people. Which it has nothing to do at all with "the west" since these attacks by Muslim fundamentalists started over 1,400 years ago and it continues to go on these days.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Cultural problems like rape and murder have little to do with religion unless you also mistakenly think that the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world (US) can be blamed on Christianity.

GOD of Usury is the greed controlling the interest of western countries....

So what is the aim of US and why....



Their private army, the Wahhabist have conquered Libya and are hell bent on conquering Syria. The same Wahhabist that go through open borders causing terrorism in countries like France and UK is aimed to keep hatred of Islam alive so no-one questions the illegal plundering of islam nations.

If you think that US hasn't been financing these terrorist then listen to the man himself....

a reply to: glend

Seriously?... How the heck does any of that dismiss the fact that the prophet of Islam partook in everything that Muslim fundamentalists/radicals are doing to this day?... Are you going to claim the U.S. government travelled back in time to over 1,400 years ago and forced Muslims and Muhammed to do the things they did, and to tell the followers to continue doing those things they did in the past?...

Cultural problems like rape and murder have everything to do with the prophet of Islam committing rape, murders, and raiding for booty...

If Christianity never changed from the old testament, and Jesus Christ hadn't been sent by God, Christianity would have become something similar to what radical Muslims are doing, but it didn't. Jesus Christ changed those ways. The prophet of Islam died telling his people to conquer the world, and to re-conquer the lands that they had invaded such as "Al-Andalus" (which is how they call Spain) alongside reconquering the sections of Europe they lost and the entire Mediterranean.

a reply to: JAY1980

Why is it always an "us vs them" mentality with you?

I'm a Muslim in a thread that's entire purpose is to paint Islam as something that it isn't. Clearly I'm not the one starting the "Us vs Them" mentality here. Or am I supposed to overlook that?

It gives me the impression that you see people like myself and ElectricUniverse as an enemy or something.

Once again, I'm in a thread that's entire purpose is to paint my religion as something that it isn't. Re-read the post I was responding to & then tell me who's supposedly seeing who as an enemy. Though if I did consider either of you as enemies, it would be because of your tones and rhetoric, not because of my religious beliefs.

Do you not consider yourself an American?

What kind of off-topic question is that? There's a good chance my family tree was here before yours was,meaning I'm probably more American than you are. Though I wonder if you'd consider me a fellow American if you saw me walking in your neighborhood with my crescent moon necklace on?

Yes but the problem we are dealing with are percentages that subscribe to a particular set of ideals. Please don't try and muddy the waters by trying to deflect away from the violence YOUR peers are committing.

LOL Now you're contradicting your earlier statements. You accuse me of having the "Us vs Them" mentality, yet you're instantly attacking me for the actions of people I don't even know nor have ever met. If anything, you're actively pushing an "Us vs Them" mentality against me, even though I'm one of the pro-democracy, pacifist, pro-interfaith, pro-feminist, pro-LGBT Muslims that are needed to "modernize" the conservative branches of my religion.

I'm interested to hear what if anything you have personally done to try and effect positive change inside Islam.

Who are you? I owe you nothing. No explanations, no proof, no anything. I'm not jumping through hoops to prove myself to you. You can go kick rocks for all I care. LOL

originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: enlightenedservant

blah blah blah, is your response? The OP asked you a question, if you want the respect of having a discussion, how about answering the post, rather then deflect? or...are you afraid you'll prove him right? but that's part of the discussion? to give and take the middle ground.

Use your damn brains brother and wake up.

I'm no longer interested in a discussion with him/her since it's pretty obvious that it won't change anything.

Though for the record, I was responding to a part of his/her post about Islam supposedly needing to modernize. He/she completely ignored every point I made & started talking about hearsay from 1,400 years ago, which has nothing to do with modernizing Islam. The fact that he/she completely ignored the current modernizing forces within many Muslim communities made it clear that he/she didn't really care about that.

ETA: My time on ATS has taught me when I'm wasting my time on Islam-related topics. Some posters want an honest dialogue and it shows in their words. I have no problem engaging in long conversations with them. Others simply don't. To be frank, I stopped caring what people here think about my religion although sometimes I'm compelled to point something out or to clarify a misconception. My beliefs on the topic won't change and neither will the opinions of most of the posters here. So what's the point?

Muslims accusing a woman of lying, I'm totally shocked.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Ah, good old Ayaan. If you're going to promote her, why not also promote the other side to her story? She & her "story" were exposed as frauds many years ago. Or is she simply new to you?

Is there anything she said in the OP incorrect, or wrong.

She did point out that people who want to reform Islam are pilloried, a bit like what you are doing by posting a bunch of un-evidenced vids.

Islam is not progressive while the main-stream hold on to Shariah Law, are anti-women and believe in apostasy. Apostasy is basically you cannot leave Islam. In the civilised West you can be cut off from your community and family, yet in the uncivilised majority Muslim world you can be put to death. How can such a brutal treatment of difference encourage tolerance and progressiveness?