So how is the NSA not a Law Enforcement organization?

originally posted by: TobyFlenderson
a reply to: reldra

And it sounds like you intentionally failed to do your job. You were there to make sure they didn't violate the law, but let them. Should be proud.

You replied to the wrong person.

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Stevemagegod
When I heard the NSA Director tell us that they are not a Law Enforcement organization im thinking now i know that is a lie.

It wasn't factual. In fact, I carried a badge and a gun every single day I worked for them. I had more 'jurisdiction' as a federal agent under the NSA umbrella than in any other position (even if it was with the same badge and a similar gun).

Did you need to take a Civil Service exam for that job? I've taken the Police Civil Service exam in my Local County in NY States still waiting on the results or were you prior Law Enforcement and just moved up the ranks?

originally posted by: reldra
But as for law enforcement, you were not.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

Sounds like you were supervising NSA agents and that law.

The COMSEC guys had their own supervisors. I was just there to make sure they weren't going to 'really' break the law.

You made it appear as though you were law enforcement in regard to citizens. With the badge and gun and all.

That's why they give you a badge and a gun. LOL

originally posted by: reldra
And say you are being entirely truthful.

Yes. Concerning this subject, the better the CT community understands the truth ... the better.

Were you able to enforce laws and arrest people within the US?

The limits on our charter were classified. I will tell you that the spectrum was extremely broad. No one would expect me to arrest you for jaywalking, but if you and friend talked about doing it, and then I caught you ... you could have been in a real world of hurt. Would that scenario ever pan out? Absolutely not. And I assure you, I would have been relieved in short order.

I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

originally posted by: ColdWisdom

originally posted by: reldra
a reply to: Stevemagegod

They are an Intelligence Agency that operates outside of the US. They do not enforce laws, they gather intelligence.
They share information, but do not assess personally. The only assessment they make is if it should be shared.

You're confusing the NSA for the CIA.

No, the NSA only surveills US citizens in very narrow circumstances. NSA's presence in the US is pretty limited.

Not that they can't get around it, but technically, there are a bunch of both laws and national security directives that prevent THEM from surveilling US citizens. In a couple of circumstances, there has been a very brief span where they were tasked to find someone in the US and that was covered by whatever they called a PDD at the time, but I was a young man the last time I'm aware that happened.

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: reldra
But as for law enforcement, you were not.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

Sounds like you were supervising NSA agents and that law.

The COMSEC guys had their own supervisors. I was just there to make sure they weren't going to 'really' break the law.

You made it appear as though you were law enforcement in regard to citizens. With the badge and gun and all.

That's why they give you a badge and a gun. LOL

originally posted by: reldra
And say you are being entirely truthful.

Yes. Concerning this subject, the better the CT community understands the truth ... the better.

Were you able to enforce laws and arrest people within the US?

The limits on our charter were classified. I will tell you that the spectrum was extremely broad. No one would expect me to arrest you for jaywalking, but if you and friend talked about doing it, and then I caught you ... you could have been in a real world of hurt. Would that scenario ever pan out? Absolutely not. And I assure you, I would have been relieved in short order.

I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

You have to be making this up. If it were real, you wouldn't be typing it here. If it was real, I would have accepted a PM saying to stop. Yet you went on in a public forum.

originally posted by: Snarl
I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

Oh, you talking the FPS aspect of it? A FSO/CSSO sort of deal?

a reply to: Bedlam

No, the NSA only surveills US citizens in very narrow circumstances. NSA's presence in the US is pretty limited.

None of what you said contradicts anything I said.

I never said they surveilled US citizens, although we know that they have the capability to.

All I said was that they operate domestically. I know you're a former intelligence contractor, so I won't contest any of what you say about the agency.

originally posted by: ColdWisdom
a reply to: Bedlam

All I said was that they operate domestically. I know you're a former intelligence contractor, so I won't contest any of what you say about the agency.

They operate domestically in that they're HERE for the most part, and if there's a communication with at least one dirty foot then they can listen in on that, given other restrictions. Or internet traffic. Take ATS. If there's a thread where only demonstrably US citizens are posting, they can't listen in. Technically. However, the first time someone from Australia posts on the thread (or anywhere else), it's fair game because it just grew a dirty foot.

If there's no one on the thread from another country, though, it's always possible to add someone. Thus it can be gotten around by Nigel, who works at the Down, or Percy at Alice Springs.

Then, too, they have non-intelligence arms like the computational security guys. And the guys that administer the crypto stuff. If you wanted to be picky, you could say that the NSA 'operates domestically' because they license us the IP for a particular crypto block. But it's not what people think of when they say 'the NSA operates in the US'.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Snarl
I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

Oh, you talking the FPS aspect of it? A FSO/CSSO sort of deal?

Those are contractor jobs. Meaning he wouldn't be in the NSA but have a contractor job and some clearance and the ability to hold someone like a security guard?

originally posted by: ColdWisdom

originally posted by: reldra
a reply to: Stevemagegod

They are an Intelligence Agency that operates outside of the US. They do not enforce laws, they gather intelligence.
They share information, but do not assess personally. The only assessment they make is if it should be shared.

You're confusing the NSA for the CIA.

The NSA is the domestic intelligence agency which works concurrent with the DIA or the defense intelligence agency.

CIA is the intelligence agency that deals with foreign espionage.

Coincidentally, they also deal with psychics and UFOs in the homeland but that's all supposed to be hush hush.

She isn't confusing anything. The NSA is SUPPOSED to gather foreign SIGNALS intelligence: SIGINT. The CIA has a much broader remit and gets its hands dirty in a variety of ways, James Bond style. They might do some wiretaps, but they don't have their own fleet of satellites and listening stations like the NSA does. The NSA listens, records, and passes on significant information to relevant other agencies, but usually the military. Do you have a group of rebels trying to overthrow a puppet government in Africa? It's guaranteed that the NSA records every cell conversation they have. Usually they don't do anything, but they do know what is going on.

Ironically given what we know (or think we know) NSA employees can get on significant trouble if they spy locally. How do I know? My relative used to train the first level people at one base. After she was transferred three of these guys lost their security clearances because they were caught listening in domestically. I don't know how widespread domestic surveillance is, and, of course, people here treat Snowdown as an infallible god, but I would suggest to you that what we actually know about this subject is a whole lot less than we think we know.

For the record there is officially sanctioned spying and the inevitable pranksters. When I worked for the phone company all you needed was a headset with alligator clips to listen in on any telephone conversation. Of course it was strictly forbidden and a firing offense, but everyone did it at one time or another. I remember on night at the Central Office where a couple of guys found a conversation between two lovers reminiscing over their fantastic night together when they were being (cough) quite specific about what they did to each other. They put it on speaker phone which was loud enough to be heard throughout this 10,000 square foot building. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it forbidden? Yes. Could it get you fired? Yes. But you gotta catch me first.

originally posted by: reldra
Those are contractor jobs. Meaning he wouldn't be in the NSA but have a contractor job and some clearance and the ability to hold someone like a security guard?

No, you can be FPS and work for the government. Most do. That's why I said 'sort of'. As in 'like'.

In the same manner, *I* can arrest you as an FPS officer. I just don't think of myself as a LEO. Some do. The way Snarl phrased his replies reminded me of the way I answer that question.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: reldra
Those are contractor jobs. Meaning he wouldn't be in the NSA but have a contractor job and some clearance and the ability to hold someone like a security guard?

No, you can be FPS and work for the government. Most do. That's why I said 'sort of'. As in 'like'.

In the same manner, *I* can arrest you as an FPS officer. I just don't think of myself as a LEO. Some do. The way Snarl phrased his replies reminded me of the way I answer that question.

Ok, I understand now. It's still not exactly the same. When I was a security guard, I had the option to 'hold someone', but I was told it would be a better idea to call someone else. I did not think of myself as a LEO. I thought of myself as someone who walked around, looked at monitors and called police if something went wrong. Though I had a badge and a stun gun. On any occasion there could be a physical altercation, I picked up a phone.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Snarl
I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

Oh, you talking the FPS aspect of it? A FSO/CSSO sort of deal?

Nothing I ever did was on that level of responsibility. We got our marching orders and did what we were expected to do. Anyone could have done it, but you had to go to school to get your badge and credentials. I guess certain folks thought that was the correct appearance.

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Snarl
I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

Oh, you talking the FPS aspect of it? A FSO/CSSO sort of deal?

Nothing I ever did was on that level of responsibility. We got our marching orders and did what we were expected to do. Anyone could have done it, but you had to go to school to get your badge and credentials. I guess certain folks thought that was the correct appearance.

We're even then. You could have enforced the law physically if you wanted to.

I would only have jumped in if someone was in danger. This wasn't a store. I would have pressed buttons to close fire doors throughout the building and called police.

a reply to: Stevemagegod

Because they dont enforce laws...just and gather information that can supply supply evidence.

There's nothing like instilling confidence and earning the trust of the general public.

" I work for the government and I'm your friend !"

Buck

originally posted by: flatbush71
There's nothing like instilling confidence and earning the trust of the general public.

" I work for the government and I'm your friend !"

Buck

LOL.

Some more on the NSA for your reading pleasure.

The NSA is like an umbrella agency. Lots of people work for them, but these people are not NSA employees. You have three basic groups.

1) NSA employees. These people get a paycheck from the NSA. They must have a Top Secret Clearance. They have to undergo periodic lie detector examinations. The NSA "leash" on these employees is what you could call profound. Screw up and you're dead meat. Many of the newer NSA employees are recruited from #2 below, directly from the military.

2) Military. This is a huge group consisting largely of enlisted military from all branches who have learned a foreign language at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California. from Spanish to Arabic these E-3 military go to school from a few weeks (Spanish, German) to two years (Arabic or Farsi, Korean or Chinese) in an intensive immersion course. When these guys graduate, they are pretty damned good. As E-4 they then can join their units in the field and become, for example, Arabic translators in Iraq, or they can join an NSA-sponsored facility such as exists in Fort Gordon, SC, where they listen to conversations piped in from some listening post located maybe in Cyprus (for the Middle East). These guys are young: early twenties for most. These people get a military paycheck.

3) Contractor employees: As usual, this is a way to keep the Federal employee count down. Contractor employees are usually ex-military who have finished their six-year term of enlistment and wind up doing the very same job as the enlisteds, except for more pay. They work for a contracted term, and turnover is high. These people fill-in where there are insufficient "billets" (job openings) in the military itself. These people get a private paycheck from their private employers.

All these people work "for" the NSA, but they are only under the control of the NSA to a limited degree, but the "reach" of the NSA is far broader than it looks like on the surface. Next time may tell you how Top Secret Security clearances are a bit of a joke. I once scared off one of the examiners because she was frightened of my cocker spaniel.

a reply to: schuyler
Nice post.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Snarl
I could arrest anyone, anywhere, at anytime ... just like any other LEO.

Oh, you talking the FPS aspect of it? A FSO/CSSO sort of deal?

Nothing I ever did was on that level of responsibility. We got our marching orders and did what we were expected to do. Anyone could have done it, but you had to go to school to get your badge and credentials. I guess certain folks thought that was the correct appearance.

We're even then. You could have enforced the law physically if you wanted to.

I used to arrest this one guy every day. He was the funniest guy in the van. We remained friends right up until we retired. I've called him up once since then. He works in Real Estate now.

Now we're even (whatever that means).

The NSA employs a law enforcement element. I do not know why the NSA Director would lead people to believe otherwise and I seriously doubt that was his intent.