Poland confirms 98-year-old Minnesota man was Nazi commander, seeks extradition

a reply to: seagull

We'll probably never know

Also we will probably know what he did after the war? as he could of spent many hours helping those who were displaced and spent a lot of his life atoning for what he was ordered to do and thus has filled his cup to a point while it will never be full will certainly be well full.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

We do. Nothing really new about that...

In the heat of battle, things happen. That's why war is something to be avoided, if at all possible. But many, not all by any means, of these massacres of civilians happened in response to, as reprisals, actions taken by partisans, I'll leave it to the individual to decide the rightness or wrongness of it. I, obviously, come down on the wrong side. It may be understandable, but I find it very hard to be reasonable about it.

Other actions, especially in the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe, not just Poland far, far behind the lines are less of a shade of gray. Completely black, with no possible way to excuse it as the "heat of battle" or "fog of war". Or, in France, in Occupied Europe.

Massecres. Notice, all of you, who the perpetrators of these were. The SS. We're not talking about your run of the mill, just wants to go home, Wehrmacht soldier here. The SS were a whole 'nother breed of obscene.

Hitler Jugend. Das Reich. SS Adolph Hitler. ...and many others. Many of whom had allegations of war crimes attached to them from the get go. Not isolated events, which any army unit may have, but constant virtually never ending accusations

SS units.

To be fair, the Allies had more than a few moments of madness, too. Deliberate and calculated.

Katyn Forest.

Other allegation against the allies.

I suppose, in a way, this only supports your thesis, Burd... You'll notice I don't really disagree with you that strongly?? But when the time comes, as it should, for people to answer for their actions...I can't help but cheer it on.

So, as is often the case, you and I will agree to disagree.

a reply to: Maxatoria

True enough. ...and in a trial the attempted atonement would come to light. Does any good outweigh those sorts of actions, though?

Nothing will come of this, as he is, probably, far too ill to be put on trial. I'm fine with that. That should not, however, keep us from exposing his actions.

He was ordered. You see, I have a huge problem with that. I know myself well enough to know beyond any shadow of a doubt, I would not obey any order of this sort. Regardless of penalty--death, imprisonment...what ever. I have to respect the guy who looks out at me from that mirror every morning/evening.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: introvert

In this case, due to circumstance--illness, I'll agree with you.

If he were competent to stand trial? Hang him.

Thankfully, these monsters grow fewer and fewer by the year, soon they'll all be answering for crimes to a higher authority than I.

Unfortunately, we do seem to be replacing 'em with new model monsters, don't we?? Not quite to the same scope, but not through lack of "want to" on their part.

It doesn't seem to serve a purpose to jail someone if they do not understand why they are being jailed.

That's my opinion anyway.

a reply to: andy06shake

Yes, we do.

...and it's just as wrong in many ways.

As Burd, and many, many others throughout history, has pointed out--things happen in war. Call it the heat of battle, call it the fog of war...call it whatever you like.

When the acts happen in the heat of the moment? It's understandable...horrific, and to be avoided at most any cost. Few would disagree with that.

But that's not what we're talking about here...or in many, many of the cases where the SS are involved. Many of their actions are deliberate, planned, and executed with malice aforethought. It becomes rather hard to excuse those actions with the heat of battle, or fog of war...doesn't it?

When these actions come to light they should be investigated, regardless as to the when of it, and actions taken--even if that action is only a thread on ATS that exposes the action to the harsh light of revelation.

Should this guy hang? At the least, if guilty, metaphorically...yes, he should. I see no reason to not expose him for what he may be, a monster. If he isn't the monster Poland thinks he is, then that'll come out, too. Or should.

originally posted by: seagull
I suppose, in a way, this only supports your thesis, Burd... You'll notice I don't really disagree with you that strongly?? But when the time comes, as it should, for people to answer for their actions...I can't help but cheer it on.

So, as is often the case, you and I will agree to disagree.

Whatever side we take on this topic, I am certainly not going to sit here and defend Nazi Germany. I will only say that, having read way more than has probably been healthy about WWII and other documented wars, when I think "war crimes and atrocities" it starts and stops with the Holocaust where Germany is concerned.

In many, many ways the international response to Japan's rape of the Nanjing makes every one of these years-after-the-fact "former Nazi" trials a ridiculous joke. 300,000 civilians killed and burned, bloodsport contests where Japanese troops were timed to see how many unarmed civilians they could murder in a timed event, the rape of hundreds of thousands of women and children, cannibalism, and actions which would have horrified all but the upper eschelon of the SS, joyfully carried out by 50,000 Japanese soldiers... 1, yes freaking ONE Japanese officer, one Japanese politician, and 5 soldiers were tried and sentenced to death. 300,000 dead, hundreds of thousands of women and children raped and tortured, etc... 7 brought up on war crime charges...

The world is a cruel place and selective tsk-tsking only makes it more cruel, IMO.

a reply to: andy06shake

What about all the Nazi scientists and other miscreants appropriated and given a get out of gaol free card via such nefarious projects as Operation Paperclip and the like, should they also be held accountable for there part in said mass genocide?

yes, if it was found out they that knew that what they the had they produced was specifically used for killing jews in the chambers, or any of the others that were targeted by the nazis. the ones that made mechanical weapons, planes tanks, rockets, knowing that they were being used for the same, yes. those that thought that theirs weren't or didn't know no. but that is a gray area because all countries have scientists and engineers making weapons that could potentially be used in mass murder/ genocide. it's a sad fact that there needs to be someone who does that.

here's a hypothetical question for you say this was a 98 yr old himmler, goebbels, or any other of the high command, hell even a 98 year old hitler, let them live rest of his life free or if competent and found guilty hang him?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Whatever side we take on this topic, I am certainly not going to sit here and defend Nazi Germany. I will only say that, having read way more than has probably been healthy about WWII and other documented wars, when I think "war crimes and atrocities" it starts and stops with the Holocaust where Germany is concerned.

To a point, I agree with you.

The Holocaust is where much, even most, of the atrocities occurred. Not all, but the vast majority. Malmady massacre during the Battle of the Bulge is a prime example.

Anywhere where the SS had a presence is prime investigative ground for war crimes. You may have noticed, I'm not a fan...

The actions of the Japanese has always struck me odd. The actions there have never received any where near the exposure that they should have. Much, but no where near the same amount.

Some of that, I'm fairly sure, is because of the Euro-centric nature of history in the West. Another might be the way the war in the Pacific was waged. It was, in many ways, the only "total war" the US has ever waged. The Japanese fought dirty, so too did the United States. In many cases it was: "Prisoners? What prisoners?" Not just because the Japanese had a culture of fighting to the last, but because quite simply there was hatred involved on both sides.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

This is one of the very few times we seem to agree.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I think you put this very well and I agree with everything, though seeing if you can maybe get a few questions answered (if capable) wouldn't hurt

a reply to: seagull

I think the burying of Nanjing to history is twofold.
1. Japan became extremely pliant to the west and especially America following WWII. The Japanese culture has historically subjected itself to kiss the boots of anyone who could anihilate them in battle. They knowtow to power.
2. China remained an isolated enigma to the world until Nixon began the process of opening China to the west. I absolutely think it is a fact that Jewish people have been more widely represented in western culture and are much more well known and, therefore, relateable than Chinese people were prior to recent years.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

I don't believe in the death penalty so whether its Himmler, Goebbels, Genghis Khan or Queen Victoria if they are 98 i say let them live what even time they have left, and if there is a God or higher power at play let that judge and seal there fate.

You do relies people like Wernher von Braun appropriated via operations such as Paperclip were perfectly aware of what was happening to the forced labor working all around him?

Don't seem to recall him even being pulled up for war crimes or held accountable for his part in the matter. And that's just one Man of many.

Guess landing a Man on the Moon and being the Man pretty much responsible for the inception of ICBMs somewhat circumvents the justice of Man.

Look at the potential such weaponry posses regarding future mass genocide and possible extinction of our race???

Wernher von Braun however remains a hero while old 98 year old men may be possibly offered up to the politically correct alter of what we perceive to be justice.

And to what end? Poland does not even have the death penalty any longer so gaol would be the only option if found guilty. Whats the difference between a gaol cell bed and any other when you are 98, not bloody much.

The mind simply boggles at such hypocrisy.

a reply to: seagull

Some Men become monsters for a time but then become Men again, such is war.

Point is how do you prosecute a 98 year old for something that transpired 80 odd years ago?

It's not even really the same person, its a decrepit ageing sack of meat that probobly has problems distinguishing what day of the week it is.

What happens when they put him on the stand, ask him what happened and the guy simply does not remember?

What about the evidence also considering its 80 years old and probobly cannot be substantiated beyond reasonable doubt, how would you get a sound conviction with such evidence?

At his age wont be long till he faces the ultimate judgemant for his life .

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Both those points could very well play into it.

Japan was needed in that region, even more than Germany (west) was in Europe during that time period. Korea. China. Russia. etc... So things were, more or less, ignored.

Not completely, mind you...but not to the extent of Nuremberg.

a reply to: andy06shake

I've already said that he won't, in all likelihood, stand trial. With his illness? What's the point?

If you haven't noticed already, I'll say it, I tend towards reactionary when it comes to matters pertaining to SS war crimes. One of my ex-girlfriends parents (both of them) lost the entirety of their families to the SS. They only survived because they were smuggled out--never learned the story, because they wouldn't share it. Not the only reason, but one of them.

I, however reactionary I may be, will settle for the secrets they've hidden being brought out. Metaphorical hanging is sufficient for me. Thirty years or more ago, I'd have been a little more literal in my wishes to see them hang.

a reply to: andy06shake

Operation Paperclip. Those two words together are a dark blot on the Wests ledgers after WWII. Von Braun, and a host of others, should have hung right alongside Himmler, and all the others.

You'll never hear me say otherwise. I've seen unedited movies that were shot of the "research" conducted by the Nazi's. Trust me when I say, I'll never view them again. Ever.

I've always been betwixt and between about what should have been done with the information garnered through such horrific and unethical practices. Part of me thinks, rather loudly, that it should have burned with the so called scientists. The other part of me disagrees saying that that would render their deaths not only horrific, but ultimately meaningless. I don't much like that part of me...

All things being equal, in the end, I'll probably come down on your side of the argument sooner than you will to mine... But not easily, and certainly not quietly. Too often the attitude of leave well enough alone results in the history being quietly brushed under the carpet so as not to offend the easily offended. This era in history should be offensive. It should be remembered, and the perpetrators hung, if only metaphorically.

And the other Nazi's were brought to the USA,then formed NASA,what's the difference,only a select few can be charged quite the joke,and even now they hold secrets from us,and we have to pay for them,what is wrong with this picture

And the other Nazi's were brought to the USA,then formed NASA,what's the difference,only a select few can be charged quite the joke,and even now they hold secrets from us,and we have to pay for them,what is wrong with this picture

a reply to: seagull

Sorry to hear what happened to your ex-girlfriends parents.

There is really no argument, if the guy was younger and could indeed be held to account for his part in the mass genocide i would say extradition to Polish authorities was the correct thing to do.