OP/ED: The Final Solution

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong

in the past 5 years the world has cleared over 10% of its land mass for agriculture (once changed, takes forever to change back). for those that don't count, that means in 50 years... we all live in a parking lot (on top of a land fill)

Just scanning and caught this one Lazarus.

Important point and observation. Says to me we need to change the way we do things tho, not kill off the population....


.

so just what is it you suggest...
if they are EVERYWHERE
and we can't escape them... and the cures wont be given until the population is controled.
then what do we do? hummm

i am sittin and a spinnin.. and a waitin...

nope that didn't do any good...

the powers that be, wont do anything about this until the population is under control...

(if you want to debate that the world can't support the population we have right now, i have more than enough info to show that it is full to capacity..)

so we have to solve the problem, or use the solutions available to us...

what do you suggest soficrow?

.
The general idea of limiting the population until it can be supported by technology makes sense. That is why it probably will never happen. Biology runs on a kamikaze track.

If a thinking person were going to do this they would probably want to preserve genetic diversity for robust survival of the species in the future. So the idea of completely wiping out classes and categories of people doesn't sound smart to me.

I don't believe any conspiracy is in action.
BSE? that is very slow acting. people will reproduce in the YEARS before they are aware they have the disease. I don't buy that one. Additionally those prions persist in the environment. They are almost impossible to destroy. The only recent success destroying them is with enzymes from [I believe] thermal vent type bacteria. Fire, freezing, acid, virtually nothing breaks these things down.

It would be nice to imagine that people are smart enough to see the light of reason. Guess again. Religion, Ethnocentrism, racism, superstition all work to blind people to basic obvious rational reality. Biology has people's brains ratcheted to reproduce.

Also allowing people to do the job themselves means you will probably end up with some kind of genetic mono-culture. People always prefer 'people like us'. Monocultures are not robust. they are very vulnerable to a single virus or disease wiping the entire population out.

Some have commented that China is one of the problems. Excuse Me! China has done what no other nation on this planet has done. Intentionally actively, imposed strict reproduction limits on virtually everyone. Kudos to China.

Part of the reason China has been able to do this is because the state does not recognize any kind of god. Rationality is the rudder by which they steer their ship of state.

For those who believe this is an intelligent idea to pursue, maybe China can be used as a good example of population control leading to economic success.

The US has no good policies in this direction. The Loud ignorant voices of Religious Fanatics have drowned out the voice of reason. In this country our immigration policies are also at fault. Just because someone illegally gets across the border and has childbirth here it allows the child to be an American. Some illegal women have 4, 6 or more childern here. This is like the wasp that lays its eggs on the belly of a fly. the eggs hatch and the maggots eat the fly alive. Pretty sick if you ask me.

Biology also emotionally has us believe that reproduction is a constructive/productive thing. This makes sense for a species that is struggling. At 6 billion i would hope we can wake up rationality in our species, step away from the notion that we are a 'special', 'blessed' , or whatever that would allow us to think all things will be healed by magic.

We need to act like capitalists and owners and not act like renters of the planet. We live here, we have to take care of it.

At some point food will probably be manufactured, and larger populations can be supported here and in space. Until that time we have to survive with the current technologies we have, while we work on new ones.
.

Well said slank

China has the formula to follow in the problem areas... the ones that need to limit childbirth to 1 child per couple, even if they divorce and remarry...that is it..just one...
Of course this option opens a few loopholes, like being qualified for immigration to another underpopulated country...where multiple births are still permitted...

Does this involve state mandated sterlization after birth...maybe...but what choice do we have when we look at the long run and guaranteed consequences...

other countries that have a net drop or steady population, could still have 2 per couple (or 1 per each of 2 marraiges...so forth)

and anyone who has more than 2 children is fined and gets NO additional benefits for the additional children...
I know it is poor form to mention it, but there is still a large portion of the worlds population that could benefit from a little sex education, and birth control... and a swift kick in the reproductive area if they look at it as additional meal ticket for every birth... (yeah, those people still exist).

this is an extreme plan, but if anybody looked at our situation from an extra earthly perspective, they would say... what idiots... don't they know they are breeding themselves into extinction...all in the name of religion, and selfishness...
the taboos against sex education, birth control, and even abstinence are our real problem in our battle for the species...

and has been previously stated...we HAVE to preserve all races, cultures, variations of our species, becuase they all matter when survival of our gene pool comes into play...

but first thing is first... the overpopulated parts of the world, need to take the chinese option, because the other option is the africa option... and one continent in chaos is enough... which is more humane?

the greater the peace and health, the more the overpopulation.
we contaminated our natural evolution, when we overcame our natural restrictions thru medicine, and science.

This is off itself, a natural evolution, where we are now in charge of our population instead of nature, we just haven't been very good managers until now, so population control is needed...

prion type diseases can be cured, but they are essentially the same things that kill most of us...when we are seventy to ninety years old...

I would have to say that i see soficrows picture forming, and it is basically the same struggle that we have fought for endless generations...against death...
and as my name will attest... i plan on living centurys...I am all for anything that gives me that chance... and if my battle is against a prion disease, instead of a nameless killer, so be it... i know that the powers that be, wont be moved on pushing this until they feel that their place is assured...
the good news is that there are enough people that will pursue all the new research and eventually a grassroots cure will be found...
this is the day of genetic labs for $100,000. There are a lot of very smart people looking for a solution...That are not controled by the government, so I feel sure that the cure will be found.

Forget all this population junk. I say us regular people need to combine our resources, team up with a few scientists, and create our own nation out in International waters. How do I propose we do this? Im glad you asked. Although I may be young and naive the concept of my idea is definetly possible.

My theory is we could build aqua cities that would resemble that of oil rigs. Since we can already build a structure as grand as an oil rig it should not be too hard to build one made as a colony. If we build them against certain ocean currents we could use the dam concept for hydro electric power. I believe with the proper research this is possible. As well we could probably have wind turbines dotting the area because the open ocean has plenty of uninterrupted wind! Can you imagine harnessing the wind power from a tropical storm or even a hurricane!! (assuming our wind turbines are sturdy enough to withstand the force) We could have built in desalination to treat the water and build platforms to grow genetic crops quickly and in vast quantities. Of course it sounds like fantasy but if this kind of research were given the proper budget and research I believe a city like this can exist within the next 20-30 years.

Only a dream I suppose...

But hey if were looking to control the population I say forget waiting 10 years for further testing on those male contraseptive pills just start handing them out in India, China, and Africa and let it be tested like that

Soficrow: I read that executive order but I don't see where it hushes up research. Can you provide more info?

Also, where did you read that combining prions will cause them to fight each other inside the body? I'd like to know more.

A disease called fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD) appears to be the original infectious prion strain, introduced into the human population in the early 1900’s. It’s emergence is linked to the world’s first mass-vaccinations, of American soldiers for WWI. FMD finally was acknowledged officially in 1938, in the USA, when it was found to have been transmitted congenitally. The disease involves actin proteins mis-folding into “a-smooth muscle actin” (a-SMA). The presence of mis-folded a-SMA protein indicates that FMD is caused by an infectious prion.

The medical literature is rife with myth, spin and contradictory dis-information about FMD. A superficial search reveals that FMD is a rare disease, yet at the same time, a ‘not uncommon’ pathological finding, usually benign; it is also described as a natural consequence of aging and a genetic disorder – that primarily affects women.

The truth about FMD is buried just below the surface, distributed throughout the US National Institutes of Health PubMed database. PubMed references millions of medical and research articles on FMD, dating back to the early 1950’s.

For example: FMD was found in domestic turkeys in 1980 and then in steelhead trout in 1981, both in the USA. By 1996, FMD was infecting quail in Japan. So according to official spin, animals and human females get FMD, but men are immune. Like, the disease is gender-specific in humans and transmitted genetically from humans to fish and birds. Sure. Wanna buy a bridge?

* “The occurrence of fibromuscular dysplasia in the arteries of domestic turkeys.” Julian LM. Am J Pathol. 1980 Nov;101(2):415-24. PMID: 7435545
* “The ultrastructure of spontaneous coronary arterial lesions in steelhead trout (Salmo gairdneri).” House EW, Benditt EP. Am J Pathol. 1981 Sep;104(3):250-7. PMID: 7294154
* “Fibromuscular dysplasia in intramuscular arteries of Japanese quail (Coturnix coturnix japonica).” Braga IS 3rd, Tanaka S, Itakura C, Mizutani M. J Comp Pathol. 1996 Feb;114(2):123-30. PMID: 8920213

FMD usually takes decades to progress unless something triggers rapid progression, such as exposure to high-level environmental contamination. Symptoms are not verified clinically and FMD generally is not diagnosed until victims are older, and the disease has progressed. By the time men hit their 40’s, their FMD usually has morphed into atherosclerosis. It only looks like men don’t get FMD.

* “All forms of fibromuscular dysplasia are progressive and have variable rates of progression.”
Radiology, Vol 139, 45-51, Copyright © 1981 by Radiological Society of North America. Progression of renal artery fibromuscular dysplasia in 42 patients as seen on angiography. V Goncharenko, AJ Gerlock Jr, MI Shaff and JW Hollifield.
radiology.rsnajnls.org...

* “Fibromuscular dysplasia is a chronic progressive disease and some cases progress rapidly in a few months.”
Angiology. 1999 Feb;50(2):153-6. Fibromuscular dysplasia involving coronary arteries--a case report. Ogawa T, Nomura A, Komatsu H, Fujii S, Urasawa K, Okamoto H, Kitabatake A. Department of Cardiovascular Medicine, Hokkaido University School of Medicine, Sapporo, Japan. PMID: 10063947
* “Age and fibroplasia as preconditions for atheronecrosis in human coronary arteries.” Arch Pathol Lab Med 1987 Oct;111 (10):957-63 Tracy RE, Kissling GE. PMID: 3632271
* “Evolution and progression of atherosclerotic lesions in coronary arteries of children and young adults.” Arteriosclerosis. 1989 Jan-Feb;9(1 Suppl):I19-32 Stary HC. Louisiana State University, School of Medicine, New Orleans 70112. PMID: 2912430

For decades, various scientists, researchers and health activists have been trying to tell authorities and the world about FMD.

For example:

“Fibromuscular dysplasia in a child: a generalized arterial disease.” Acta Paediatr Scand 1980 Jul;69(4):563-6. Pesonen E, Koskimies O, Rapola J, Jaakelainen J. PMID: 7446106

“Fibromuscular dysplasia may be a systemic disease…, and may affect the central nervous system.”
Renovascular hypertension and demyelimating disease in a young woman. Alaska Med 1989 Jul-Dec;31(4):137-43. Neubauer RL. PMID: 2596648

“This report suggests that FMD should be considered to be a systemic angiopathy…”
“Clinical significance of cerebral aneurysm in renovascular hypertension due to fibromuscular dysplasia: two cases in siblings.” Angiology 1989 Jun;40 (6):581-8. Ouchi Y, Tagawa H, Yamakado M, Takanashi R, Tanaka S. Department of Internal Medicine, Mitsui Memorial Hospital, Tokyo, Japan. PMID: 2719343

“Focal fibromuscular dysplasia of small coronary arteries is not so rare as it is unrecognized.”
Morphologic characteristics and functional significance of focal fibromuscular dysplasia of small coronary arteries. Am J Cardiol. 1990 Apr 3;65(14):12G-22G. James TN. World Health Organization Cardiovascular Center, Galveston, Texas. PMID: 2181850

FMD eventually leads to death from heart attack, cancer, stroke or less commonly, from kidney failure, congestive heart failure, dissected arteries or burst aneurysms.

* The causes of death in patients with carotid FMD were heart attack (44.4%), cancer (33.3%) and stroke (22.2%) – now the three leading causes of death in the USA, in that order.
“Fibromuscular dysplasia of the internal carotid artery: long-term surgical results.” J Cardiovasc Surg (Torino). 1993 Dec;34(6):465-72. Moreau P, Albat B, Thevenet A. Service de Chirurgie Thoracique et Cardio-Vasculaire, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire, Montpellier, France. PMID: 8300709

Cancer, heart disease and stroke are the leading causes of death in the USA today. 1 in 2 American men will get cancer; one in 3 women. Once considered “diseases of civilization,” these 'diseases' are now epidemic around the world. The trends were identified in the early 1990’s, and responded to in part by the establishment of the US Environmental Genome Project (EGP) in 1997.

“Trends for mortality from heart disease, stroke, lung cancer, and, less distinctly, cancer other than lung cancer, tend to be similar in different countries, ... suggesting the existence of common causes amenable to the same preventive measures.”
Circulation. 1994 Jul;90(1):574-82. Heart disease, cancer, and stroke mortality trends and their interrelations. An international perspective. Thom TJ, Epstein FH. Epidemiology and Biometry Program, National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md. PMID: 8026045
circ.ahajournals.org...;90/1/574

FMD is seldom diagnosed before a life threatening “event” occurs, and 65% of reported cases in the USA are diagnosed in autopsy, with an incidence rate of 1.1% in adults.

www.emedicine.com...

“FMD frequency in the USA: incidence of new cases in adults diagnosed by angiography – 0.6%; diagnosed in autopsy – 1.1%.”

NOTE: Incidence means new cases found yearly, presented as a % of the total population.
Also see Puri, PMID: 10334397.

Here's a table that puts together the stats for FMD incidence in autopsy with reported death stats:

FMD INCIDENCE in the USA

YEAR - DEATHS - TOTAL POP - EST ADULT POP (75%) - 1.1% ADULT POP:
FMD incid in autopsy

1999 - 2,391,399 - 279,295,000 - 209,471,250 - 2,304,184
1998 - 2,337,256 - 276,115,000 - 207,086,250 - 2,277,949
1997 - 2,314,245 - 272,912,000 - 204,684,000 - 2,251,524
1996 - 2,314,690 - 269,667,000 - 202,250,250 - 2,224,750
1995 - 2,312,132 - 266,557,000 - 199,917,750 - 2,199,095

Source: Population: Census; Reported Deaths; World Health Organization.

As you can see, nearly all of the reported deaths also are diagnosed with FMD in autopsy – so the obvious conclusion is that nearly 100% of the American population is infected with FMD by adulthood.




.

I don't have time to go thru all these links this at the moment, but I wanted to pass on a massive to Sofi: this is hands down the best, most throroughly researched post I've ever seen, here or anywhere else.

Sobering stuff...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
The prion plague in perhaps a problem... but it only serves the need for culling the herd, so it is more of a solution than a problem...

...I would think they are using this as a method of herd culling... (your point) but is that bad?

Yes it's bad - because the elite are choosing the survivors. They are reserving diagnosis and treatment for themselves, and for 'designated support servants.'

...I happen not to respect thei choices - plus, I believe in democracy.

clarify if you would sofi:
how is this prion disease different from heart disease?
the effects seem to be the same, and the death stats seem to mimic each other...
could it be that heart disease is the prion disease, and we have known about it by another name all this time... and just now realize it is what heart disease is...?

It may not be responsible for all heart disease - but is certainly behind the current epidemics, and its spread to third world nations. See above post, ie:

For example:

“Fibromuscular dysplasia in a child: a generalized arterial disease.” Acta Paediatr Scand 1980 Jul;69(4):563-6. Pesonen E, Koskimies O, Rapola J, Jaakelainen J. PMID: 7446106

“Fibromuscular dysplasia may be a systemic disease…, and may affect the central nervous system.”
Renovascular hypertension and demyelimating disease in a young woman. Alaska Med 1989 Jul-Dec;31(4):137-43. Neubauer RL. PMID: 2596648

“This report suggests that FMD should be considered to be a systemic angiopathy…”
“Clinical significance of cerebral aneurysm in renovascular hypertension due to fibromuscular dysplasia: two cases in siblings.” Angiology 1989 Jun;40 (6):581-8. Ouchi Y, Tagawa H, Yamakado M, Takanashi R, Tanaka S. Department of Internal Medicine, Mitsui Memorial Hospital, Tokyo, Japan. PMID: 2719343

“Focal fibromuscular dysplasia of small coronary arteries is not so rare as it is unrecognized.”
Morphologic characteristics and functional significance of focal fibromuscular dysplasia of small coronary arteries. Am J Cardiol. 1990 Apr 3;65(14):12G-22G. James TN. World Health Organization Cardiovascular Center, Galveston, Texas. PMID: 2181850

FMD eventually leads to death from heart attack, cancer, stroke or less commonly, from kidney failure, congestive heart failure, dissected arteries or burst aneurysms.

* The causes of death in patients with carotid FMD were heart attack (44.4%), cancer (33.3%) and stroke (22.2%) – now the three leading causes of death in the USA, in that order.
“Fibromuscular dysplasia of the internal carotid artery: long-term surgical results.” J Cardiovasc Surg (Torino). 1993 Dec;34(6):465-72. Moreau P, Albat B, Thevenet A. Service de Chirurgie Thoracique et Cardio-Vasculaire, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire, Montpellier, France. PMID: 8300709

Cancer, heart disease and stroke are the leading causes of death in the USA today. 1 in 2 American men will get cancer; one in 3 women. Once considered “diseases of civilization,” these 'diseases' are now epidemic around the world. The trends were identified in the early 1990’s, and responded to in part by the establishment of the US Environmental Genome Project (EGP) in 1997.

“Trends for mortality from heart disease, stroke, lung cancer, and, less distinctly, cancer other than lung cancer, tend to be similar in different countries, ... suggesting the existence of common causes amenable to the same preventive measures.”
Circulation. 1994 Jul;90(1):574-82. Heart disease, cancer, and stroke mortality trends and their interrelations. An international perspective. Thom TJ, Epstein FH. Epidemiology and Biometry Program, National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md. PMID: 8026045
circ.ahajournals.org...;90/1/574

FMD is seldom diagnosed before a life threatening “event” occurs, and 65% of reported cases in the USA are diagnosed in autopsy, with an incidence rate of 1.1% in adults.

www.emedicine.com...

“FMD frequency in the USA: incidence of new cases in adults diagnosed by angiography – 0.6%; diagnosed in autopsy – 1.1%.”

NOTE: Incidence means new cases found yearly, presented as a % of the total population.
Also see Puri, PMID: 10334397.

Here's a table that puts together the stats for FMD incidence in autopsy with reported death stats:

FMD INCIDENCE in the USA

YEAR - DEATHS - TOTAL POP - EST ADULT POP (75%) - 1.1% ADULT POP:
FMD incid in autopsy

1999 - 2,391,399 - 279,295,000 - 209,471,250 - 2,304,184
1998 - 2,337,256 - 276,115,000 - 207,086,250 - 2,277,949
1997 - 2,314,245 - 272,912,000 - 204,684,000 - 2,251,524
1996 - 2,314,690 - 269,667,000 - 202,250,250 - 2,224,750
1995 - 2,312,132 - 266,557,000 - 199,917,750 - 2,199,095

Source: Population: Census; Reported Deaths; World Health Organization.

As you can see, nearly all of the reported deaths also are diagnosed with FMD in autopsy – so the obvious conclusion is that nearly 100% of the American population is infected with FMD by adulthood.

same is true in africa... the civilized world has left the large part of the continent to its own destuction for decades... this is because they had hoped that it would solve its own problems with war famine and disease...

Corporate industry and resource harvesting created those problems - and didn't leave the poor Africans even iwth fresh water...

in another thread, i pointed out that science does have a cure, but can't use it until the population of the world is stable...(and nothing will be done before that)

IMO - the epidemic is creating population instability - we are hard-wired to reproduce when the species is threatened.

in fact... if a prion disease was rampant in the population... it would be a good thing for mother earth... and our children...(the ones arising from immune couples)...

much like many of the longevity medicines will coincidentally be released when the population can handle the stress...

facts are facts...
this world ain't big enough for all of us, and our health...

Again, it's not people who are destroying the earth's eco-systems - it's industry, and resource harvesting.

You are choosing profits over people.


The question I asked in the article was:


Should the human population be controlled to support the system, or should the system be changed to support life?


You have given us your answer.



.

Sorrry , to say that we are a drain on the sociaty , that is people like me with MS is wrong ..

I have served my country in the AF , I have worked on the space shuttle comunication system in its infancy , I was a broadcast engineer for ABC , my last employment was training the National Guard in simulated desert war fare up and down the east coast in the bradley fighting vehicle and abrams tank. To say I was a drain on the sociaty is totaly wrong. I worked , I did not get any conpensation from government programs .. I am doing my part by paying taxes so those less fortunit can live off the government. I have in my enigineering experiance been developing new enegry sources and other projects , my main hero is tesla , and damm if I will let people tell me I am not valuable to the whole. Many blessings ..

Originally posted by zman
Sorrry , to say that we are a drain on the sociaty , that is people like me with MS is wrong ..

I have served my country in the AF , I have worked on the space shuttle comunication system in its infancy , I was a broadcast engineer for ABC , my last employment was training the National Guard in simulated desert war fare up and down the east coast in the bradley fighting vehicle and abrams tank. To say I was a drain on the sociaty is totaly wrong. I worked , I did not get any conpensation from government programs .. I am doing my part by paying taxes so those less fortunit can live off the government. I have in my enigineering experiance been developing new enegry sources and other projects , my main hero is tesla , and damm if I will let people tell me I am not valuable to the whole. Many blessings ..

Good for you zman!


I'm sorry you have to justify your existence, and defend your right to be, and to live. ...You shouldn't have to.

...Unlike you, many disabled and dysfunctional people can't speak for themselves, and don't have a resume. ...IMO - they are just as valuable as you, me, and your average physicist or molecular biologist are.

I have learned much that is valuable and important from babies, kids with Downs, drunks and even abusers - things that can't be learned from books or science.

...Even the so-called "useless eaters" carry knowledge and energy that needs to stay in the world, and inform our decisions and action. Ecology is complex - and even human society separated from the world is still a 'complex adaptive system' - we destroy and remove components at our own great peril.



.



[edit on 2-2-2005 by soficrow]

ZMAN
don't ever let anyone tell you that you don't deserve the same opportunity at life, as they do...
afterall... after the next plague comes... it just might wipe everyone out that DOESN"T have MS
and then the entire future of our species would depend on you and others with MS...
that is just one of many reasons that we have to keep our diversity (not to mention the humane ones)

Soficrow: to clarify...
I think population should be controlled immediatly across the board to support the system... WHILE we adjust the system with our many possiblilites (space colonies, comonization of other planets, self sustaining man made floating cities, as was mentioned before, to support the population...

BTW, japan has been designing artificial islands for some years... they have many man made extensions, presently... one airport is almost entirely on water...

to me, there is no choice... by the time we can "adjust the system", it will be to late to save it

I personally think someone ought to collect a million 2 liter bottles and make a giant raft... then sell it to japan...

Yo Zman - don't ever justify your existence! You are no better and no worse than anyone else.
I don't know you, but as my ATS brother I am under the belief that you are a good man, and a valuable person to our society.
I feel that population control is something that needs to be addressed, however not by extermination, but rather by controlled breeding.
Stay Well Z!

Soficrow:
You're scaring the SH-T out of everyone here man...seriously...you've done all this research, can you PLEASE give us some good news!?
SHEESH...
What can we do already?!

Originally posted by radagast
as far as deciding which people to get rid of first, maybe we can have a "logans run" scenario, when you turn 30, you're outta here.....

But......I'm over 30 and I can't even walk! Guess I'm sunk

Originally posted by Ghaleon4
Soficrow:
You're scaring the SH-T out of everyone here man...seriously...you've done all this research, can you PLEASE give us some good news!?
SHEESH...
What can we do already?!

Sorry all - tripped over a hot new prion story this morning - kept me busy - will post it tomorrow. ...This is a quick and dirty response - more later...

What can we do?


There are diagnostic tests, treatments and vaccines - which are not covered by insurance - and not available to ordinary people. Demand them, together. Don't roll over.

* “Blood test for prions?” 23 November 2000 www.nature.com...
* “Antibodies could combat prion-based diseases” August 2, 2001 www.biomedcentral.com...
* “Antibodies cripple prions.” 6 March 2003 www.nature.com...
* “Scientific Advance Establishes 'Proof Of Principle' That Prion Diseases Might Be Prevented” 6 March 2003, Nature. www.sciencedaily.com...
* “Researchers Discover Possible Diagnosis, Treatment, Vaccine For Mad Cow, Prion Diseases” 2003-06-02
www.sciencedaily.com...

Demand massive testing and access to treatments and vaccines. Demand clean ups, and effective sterilization and decontamination of hospitals and food production factories, to start. Demand that chemicals and toxins be removed from our food and the environment because they trigger the diseases and make them progress. DEMAND PREVENTION.

Demand that Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulations and controls be up-graded and implemented. There are nano-filters to clean them out of wastewater and drinking water - also not being used. Demand that they be installed and used.

Again. The technology does exist to kill these suckers. It's just not used. Implementing the new effective measures will cost, and no one is doing it voluntarily.


smallpeeps asked for a reference on how competing strains neutralize each other. Have thousands of files, can't find the specific reference I was looking for, but...

Here's a a quick outline of the 'competing strains' concept, one preliminary reference to the phenomeneon in prions, and a quick overview of self-help prion defense.

CONCEPT: when you have 2 strains of the same disease, in the absence of co or super-infection (eg., Nowak & May 1994), they both are competing for the same "prey" (eg., Armstrong & McGehee 1980). ...Prions prey on proteins of a similar shape to themselves - and make them morph into their prion shape on contact - they get their identity from their shape. If you have 2 or more prion strains in the same cell, they just keep changing each other back and forth, and the normal protein has a better chance for survival.

...although a trend exists for the risk of infection with prion disease to increase with repeated doses, it does so to a lesser degree than is expected if challenges combine independently or in a cumulative manner.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Sep 16;100(19):10960-5. Epub 2003 Sep 05. Repeated challenge with prion disease: the risk of infection and impact on incubation period. Gravenor MB, Stallard N, Curnow R, McLean AR. Institute for Animal Health, Compton, Berkshire RG20 7NN, United Kingdom. [email protected] PMID: 12960400

SELF-HELP PRION DEFENSE


The curcumin in CURRY inhibits prion replication.

* J Virol. 2003 May;77(9):5499-502. Inhibition of protease-resistant prion protein accumulation in vitro by curcumin. Caughey B, Raymond LD, Raymond GJ, Maxson L, Silveira J, Baron GS. Laboratory of Persistent Viral Diseases, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Rocky Mountain Laboratories, Hamilton, Montana 59840, USA. [email protected] PMID: 12692251
jvi.asm.org...
* J Neurosci. 2001 Nov 1;21(21):8370-7. The curry spice curcumin reduces oxidative damage and amyloid pathology in an Alzheimer transgenic mouse. Lim GP, Chu T, Yang F, Beech W, Frautschy SA, Cole GM. Departments of Medicine and Neurology, University of California, Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California 90095, USA. PMID: 11606625
www.jneurosci.org...

These results suggest that frequent consumption of GREEN TEA enables the body to maintain a high level of tea polyphenols and this paper is the first pharmacological evidence of a wide distribution of [3H]EGCG in mouse organs, indicating a similar wide range of target organs for cancer prevention in humans.
Carcinogenesis. 1998 Oct;19(10):1771-6. Wide distribution of [3H](-)-epigallocatechin gallate, a cancer preventive tea polyphenol, in mouse tissue. Suganuma M, Okabe S, Oniyama M, Tada Y, Ito H, Fujiki H. Saitama Cancer Center Research Institute, Japan. [email protected] PMID: 9806157

Several classes of compounds were represented in the 17 most potent inhibitors, including naturally occurring polyphenols (e.g., tannic acid and tea extracts), phenothiazines, antihistamines, statins, and antimalarial compounds. ...The fact that many are either approved human drugs or edible natural products should facilitate their use in animal testing and clinical trials.

* J Virol. 2003 Oct;77(19):10288-94. New inhibitors of scrapie-associated prion protein formation in a library of 2000 drugs and natural products. Kocisko DA, Baron GS, Rubenstein R, Chen J, Kuizon S, Caughey B. Laboratory of Persistent Viral Diseases, Rocky Mountain Laboratories, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Hamilton, Montana 59840, USA. PMID: 12970413
An alphabetical list of the compounds is available at the MicroSource Discovery website at www.msdiscovery.com/spect.html.
NOTE: Antihistamines. The antihistamines astemizole and terfenadine were both among the most potent PrPSc inhibitors. These compounds are known to be poor at crossing the blood-brain barrier, a fact which may limit their therapeutic usefulness against TSEs. These antihistamines have been used extensively in humans but are currently not marketed in the United States because of a concern for serious, but rare, cardiovascular toxicity and the availability of safer alternatives.

...eat a varied diet to prevent a concentration of one strain in the body.




PS. Smallpeeps the research constraints come thru defining prions as 'select agents' - and restricting research for "security" reasons. ...a joke, because they're everywhere already - and no terrorist is going to wait 20-odd years for a payoff.


.


.

[edit on 2-2-2005 by soficrow]

I've always liked Canadian scientist and environmental activist David Suzuki's example of just how fatal our situation has become, and something to think about for all those proposing the collonization of space as a possible solution:

...image a test tube full of food for bacteria to last 60 minutes, and imagine that we introduce a single bacterium that divides each minute. Because the population doubles every minute, you get exponential population growth. At 60 minutes, the test tube is full of bacteria and all the food is gone. Now here’s the interesting part: the test tube is 50% full at *59 MINUTES*, 25% full at *58 MINUTES*… 3% full at 55 minutes …

So Suzuki continues and proposes: Perhaps one of the bacterium figure out they’re going to run out of food at 55 minutes (3% full). So if the bacteria use all their resources to create another 3 test tubes of food, you’d think they would be saved wouldn’t they? Well, at 60 minutes the first test tube would be full of bacteria. At 61 minutes, the second test tube would be full of bacteria. At 62 minutes, all four test tubes would be full of bacteria. So they only bought themselves 2 more minutes of time even though they quadrupled their food.

The point of all this? Most scientists believe that we are well into the 59th minute.

The clock is ticking...

One way to help in prion research is to become a member of the World Communinty Grid and let your computer analyse data for The Human Proteome Folding Project. It's the same kind of setup as SETI@Home only vastly more important!!! Sign up now:

www.worldcommunitygrid.org...

-raven

Sofi. Have you done any research on protien enzymes? Scientist have used a special enzime that attaches to DNA and severs it at a certain spot rendering it effectivly usless. Apparently it is used alot in recumbanant DNA research, and has the potential to be the virus killer of all virus killers. There are different forms of this enzyme. They all cut the DNA, they each just do it in a different place.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Sofi. Have you done any research on protien enzymes? Scientist have used a special enzime that attaches to DNA and severs it at a certain spot rendering it effectivly usless. Apparently it is used alot in recumbanant DNA research, and has the potential to be the virus killer of all virus killers. There are different forms of this enzyme. They all cut the DNA, they each just do it in a different place.

...enzymes that cut DNA don't touch prions because prions have no DNA. But new enzymes have been found that do kill prions...

Some quicks refs:

“…prions are notoriously difficult to break down… A new disinfectant, based on enzymes collected from a volcanic pool, is showing promise in destroying the mutated prion proteins…

“We don't know why prions are so highly stable, but they are extremely hard to destroy. Indeed, one standard method of decontamination – soaking in fomaldehyde – actually stabilises the prions.”

* “Volcanic pool enzyme kills prions” 29 July 03
www.newscientist.com...

* “Scientists Discover That Enzyme Degrades Mad Cow Disease Prion,” North Carolina State University press release, January 5, 2004. J. Shih.
www.ncsu.edu...


Novel methods for disinfection of prion-contaminated medical devices. Lancet. 2004 Aug 7;364(9433):521-6. Fichet G, Comoy E, Duval C, Antloga K, Dehen C, Charbonnier A, McDonnell G, Brown P, Lasmezas CI, Deslys JP. CEA/DSV/DRM/GIDTIP, Route du Panorama, 92265 Fontenay-aux-Roses, France.
ncbi

Mechanism of inactivation on prion conversion of the Saccharomyces cerevisiae Ure2 protein. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2002 Apr 16;99(8):5253-60. Baxa U, Speransky V, Steven AC, Wickner RB. Laboratory of Structural Biology, National Institute of Arthritis, Musculoskeletal, and Skin Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA. PMID: 11959975
www.pnas.org...

New inhibitors of scrapie-associated prion protein formation in a library of 2000 drugs and natural products. J Virol. 2003 Oct;77(19):10288-94. Kocisko DA, Baron GS, Rubenstein R, Chen J, Kuizon S, Caughey B. Laboratory of Persistent Viral Diseases, Rocky Mountain Laboratories, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Hamilton, Montana 59840, USA. PMID: 12970413
jvi.asm.org...

Also - someone asked about heart disease and infectious prions earlier. Here's a quick connect-the-dots puzzle...

"Mitochondrial oxidative stress has been implicated in heart disease including myocardial preconditioning, ischemia/reperfusion, and other pathologies. In addition, oxidative stress in the mitochondria is associated with the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, prion diseases, and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) as well as aging itself."
Applied proteomics: mitochondrial proteins and effect on function. Circ Res. 2002 Mar 8;90(4):380-9. Lopez MF, Melov S. Proteome Systems, Woburn, MA 01801, USA. [email protected] PMID: 11884366
circres.ahajournals.org...

.

Originally posted by soficrow

...enzymes that cut DNA don't touch prions because prions have no DNA. But new enzymes have been found that do kill prions...

I didn't know that. I thought all forms of life had some type of DNA structure for replication. How do Prions propigate without it? You may have given a link earlier, but I have read so much on the subject now that I cant remember half of what I read