NY officials to scrap literacy test for teachers because "Blacks and Hispanics couldnt pass".

originally posted by: Xenogears
There are plenty of excellent online courses with none of the BS. You also have access to free recordings from MIT and also from Ivy league universities. And also there is amazon where you can view textbook reviews on just about any topic, and choose the best reviewed book from the topic of your choice... you're not limited to that 80s outdated book that doesn't explain things well that your professor uses.

If you've access to top notch university undergrad and graduate level textbooks, online courses and dedicated forums from experts, that's very good. You also have access to the latest scientific journals with state of the art research.

Also unlike in a university, where there might even be one required course with not so good or perhaps even a terrible professor, online you choose and if the content is not good you're free to leave and learn elsewhere from a more effective source. In a university if one of the courses you require is only given by a professor that's not so good, you have to put up with it or transfer.

Also you end up with a high debt.

In the end you forget a lot of what you're taught anyway, such is human memory. Ideally job interviews, and proper tests would make sure you're qualified, and all this qualified certification would be done away with.

You're right, there are some good online classes. However most of the sites like Coursera, Udacity, etc aren't the ones giving those classes. That's only part of the problem though, online classes don't give you instructor feedback, provide an opportunity to ask questions, or interact with peers which are all important parts of the learning process.

The thing about the debt is that, going up to an employer and telling them you watched a bunch of videos from MIT doesn't carry the same weight as having gone to MIT and graduated. Even though both take the same amount of time.

And proper tests do exist, any decent university will give them as part of passing the class. Then future classes will build on what you learned so you don't forget it.

a reply to: projectscm

Your story is pretty common. There's a lot of schools that simply pass anyone that pays, every field has schools like that, and a lot of people seek them out because of that reputation.

a reply to: Aazadan
I think the problem that we face when we take from one to give to another, no matter how good the intention, is that it will generate conflict.

Even a child that has gathered all of his brother's toys and claimed them as his own, becomes angry, vindictive, tearful and combative when the parent removes the toys from his possession and returns them to the brother that was robbed.

a reply to: Aazadan

Not everyone can even learn from online study. I have a hard time with educational environments where I can't discuss ideas with someone. And these ideas are often seen as tangents...but its just the way I think.

Still, the multi-modal learning styles of humanity get kind of white washed when people present simple solutions, which are essentially silver bullet solutions aimed at the center of mass or average. If you are average, it works great.

a reply to: Tiger5

There's good arguments for and against it. My viewpoint on it is that Affirmative Action is better than nothing, but that it's not a very good system either. Socioeconomic status would be a better point of data to measure against but it ultimately runs into the same issues along class lines rather than race. It's a problem that requires nuance to solve, but nuance is expensive, and society runs on what is most cost effective.

a reply to: Aazadan
You can CLEP courses. This is good for those that have experience and learning but did not obtain a formal education.

As far as online classes go, I was shocked when my dear friend paid a fortune for her daughter to attend a college out of state and her dorm room, to find out that her daughter was taking all of her classes online, in her dorm room.

She may have had to pay the same tuition, but she could have saved a large amount not having to pay for the dorm room and the food.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

At the same time, difficulties with literacy are not exactly a function of intellect, not all the time. Often, they're also a function of learning disability. My brother-in-law has the same issue you describe, but I am pretty sure he has some degree of learning disability going on. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he's not dumb either.

He's be perfectly capable of reading, but I think he has a phonemic awareness deficit. Given that his father is illiterate and can't function even to the point of remembering numbers well enough to dial a phone number he is unfamiliar with and that's not because he's that rock stupid although, again, not any better than average to low average in intelligence.

Those are inheritable things. My middle nephew has it although my youngest does not.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I'm pretty skeptical of online study myself, I can learn from it but I don't think it's well suited to education. Because the communication is one way it's more about telling a student how to solve one specific problem than teaching them how to be a professional in a field and think for themselves.

Like I said before, if we could effectively educate people by just sitting them infront of a screen for hours each day, TV would have replaced schools.

I spent ages to find the military person's post on the failures rates for the military and could not find it.

Anyway regarding those who fail the tests the questions that I would like answered. are
1) Can they resit in say a year's time?
2) how many of them choose to do so?

One of the things that shine about American is their attitude to failure. I would like to think that those who fail go away and spend time getting their class A game book in order and come back and successfully resit.

Does anyone know.

a reply to: Aazadan

Like I said before, if we could effectively educate people by just sitting them infront of a screen for hours each day, TV would have replaced schools.

It may well be what they will soon be pushing as the new wave in education.

There are several online high schools in my area. I even had the pleasure of providing a couple of the classes in one of the schools with a seminar on Cyber Safety.

On general appearance, it looks just like any other school, and the students look just like any other group of students. The big difference is that the majority of the classes are led by an instructor via the computer. The students are able to interact with the instructors, and each classroom has a classroom monitor. The monitor does not have to be a teacher, but they do have to have a college degree. The monitors assist the students as needed, they help maintain the equipment, monitor the students, and support the online instructors.

I found the whole thing truly interesting and it seemed to work very smoothly.

a reply to: ketsuko

Not remembering phone numbers is pretty common these days. People get worse at things the don't do. Years ago we all used to remember a bunch of phone numbers, but with the ability to program them into your phone we don't remember them anymore. It's not a learning defect, it's just the fact that it's something that doesn't get practiced much anymore.

a reply to: Tiger5
I can't tell you about all professions but I can speak about the medical profession.

I have known several people that failed the testing, and have heard stories of many others that failed. Almost all that I know and heard of, took additional classes and re-sat the test; some even more than once.

I had a dear friend that took the Nursing exam twice and failed it twice. It disturbed me greatly because she knew the information forward and backward, so I knew it couldn't be she didn't know the information.

It disturbed me so much I went to the Dean of the school and told him what was happening. He had her tested orally and she slam dunked that test. The problem wasn't that she didn't know the information, and it wasn't even the way the test was worded. It wasn't that she couldn't read or comprehend. It was because she had Testophobia.

She eeked by in college because the exams were always in familiar surroundings with familiar people. When sitting for the boards, the environment was foreign and hostile. Some people just aren't test takers, it doesn't mean that don't know their stuff.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

That's not really the same thing though because you're getting interaction with both other students, and teachers. That's more a way to get around the finances we're devoting to education requiring larger class sizes these days.

a reply to: gladtobehere

I received my educator training in New York just a few years ago. The head of the program was more worried about how everyone dressed and making sure his husband had a job in the school office.

Never any training about how to help students or manage a classroom

Seminar after seminar about making students feel good about themselves and how awful parents are.

An email got sent out to the student teachers by accident with instructions for 15% of the group to be failed no matter what to "maintain reputation of quality".

The entire education system in the US is broken, and New York is the worst.

a reply to: voiceofreason76

Its not the teachers insomuch as the leadership they learn from and work under.

Having a position of scholarship tends to be used as a bully pulpit whereby people with PhD's prove only that they are more adept at successfully arguing (usually by employing a "dazzle them with BS" tactic), and not at creating well tested philosophy for doing their jobs.

People who cannot be wrong, regardless of their education, do not deserve credibility and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt. Instead, their persistent insistence arises from the same traits that see them eventually in executive positions to wreak havoc on the masses, who usually just don't have time to untangle the bullsnip that is heaped on them when they speak out.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Xenogears

Intellectual capacity is no different in kind from say height, it is a complex multi gene trait, but it too can differ on average between populations.

It can? Can you provide more information about this? I find the claim, though not uncommon, lacking in evidence. Tell me, what is your stance on eugenics?

The research on population differences on IQ is highly contested. I've seen citations of IQ values for population averages, which are based on studies, but their methodology could be contested. But look at marathoners, there are certain groups that excel at that, look at basketball, there are groups that excel at that. It is said, though still debated, that certain groups such as Ashkenazi Jews exhibit above average intellectual prowess.

As for eugenics. Two things. First if you do not have the resources to have a child, you should not be able to have a child, as this is damaging for both the to be child and to society itself. Embryos should be tested, and the best chosen, once we've perfected genetic engineering optimization should be made to all systems where such is viable.

Unregulated reproduction is only viable with an unrestrained death rate due to aging and disease. Eliminate aging and disease and reproduction will need to be regulated.

Arguing that one group is not on average smarter will be like arguing that men aren't on average taller and stronger than women.

This, coming from someone who cites Hollywood as evidence. Thanks, but no thanks.

Heheh, I said you too can research factoids such as the average height of the japanese versus americans. It is simple.

Look at chess, the top rated players, there's a reason why the top chess players belong to one gender. The extremes of higher intellect are populated mostly by males. And no, biased research on children during the period when females develop faster than males, is not an argument against reality.

originally posted by: Tiger5
a reply to: Smellthecoffee


I am dyslexic. You however have no excuse for your colossal ignorance. Trying to race bait me does not work. The simple fact is I am probably more educated than you. I probably have more money than you. And guess what I am damn happier than you. But feel free to spew.

I am not sure where you found the issue of a chip on my shoulder but that is a racist trope if I ever heard one. FYI it is also a very lazy trope because it is such a cliché. A bit like basketball players.

Anyway as for your penmanship your may achieve more by inserting it where the sun don't shine.

Have a great day troll

I haven't laughed so much a a post for quite a while. Thank you for making my day!

Firstly you played the 'dyslexia' sympathy card as an excuse for your own 'colossal ignorance.'

You then felt the need to 'chest-thump' how much richer, happier and how much more educated you are. I'm sure you smile is whiter too! Your assertions may well be the case but your desperate need to emphasize them only serves to high-light your inner insecurity, immaturity and your need to feel equal to and/or better than the next man. It is quite sad that you feel the need to self-aggrandize yourself on an internet forum. I can smell your poor self-image from here!

This post, along with your previous, poorly-written post, also high-lights your constant and rather dismal need to prove how much, much better you are,than 'da white man.'

As one of the people that would have failed the test I sympathize with your unfocused anger. It must be horrible to have the false veneer of equality ripped apart before your very eyes.

I would be grateful if you could take a minute to stop counting your mountains of cash and inform me as to why African-Americans fail so miserably at this test; Is the answer:

A. Test beez raciss
B. Socio-economic 'innit.
C. Sorry I can't talk at the moment as I am busy counting all my money.
D. Hilary still loves me.
E. Where did I put my race-card?

Don't worry; You'll always have your money and your affirmative-action education and the memory of how you corrected the spelling of those 'white' pupils.

Me? I'll just take my inner-peace and physical health and continue to walk in the sun knowing my achievements were based on merit and NOT on a quota.

Reality is a bitter pill to swallow my friend and this particular pill seems to be choking you.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Thank for the info. the reason why I asked is that having had tests since the tender age of 9 3/4 I have come to thee conclusion that a lot of educational achievement for people of average intellect is attained as a test of character. I can see people with some gumption going back and resitting their tests and passing. Sure there is exam nerves but not everyone is Testophobic like your unfortunate friend.

Kids deserve better teachers. I say keep the test!

The real problem is that the teachers who can pass the test don`t want to teach in crime infested schools so the state has to take whoever is willing to do the job even if they can`t pass the test.
rather than enforce discipline and clean up the crime in schools it`s easier for the state to just hire any fool to teach in those schools.

These morons need to be FORCED to watch Idiocracy, its happening now !