NY officials to scrap literacy test for teachers because "Blacks and Hispanics couldnt pass".

a reply to: ketsuko

Actually, I had never heard of Thomas Sowell, Victor Davis Hanson, Steven Haward, or John Hinderaker. I used the names I did because I have heard of them. But, I don't think of bloggers highly... it has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with the medium. I'm highly suspicious of anyone who tells you what to think, rather than lays out the facts and lets you make your own conclusions. That applies for any ideology. I listen to Beck/Hannity daily because I think they're entertaining, but I don't trust a word they say. However, most people substitute being told about something for being educated in that subject, and listen to propaganda thinking it's research.

If it makes you feel better, go ahead and throw Jobs, Gates, and Zukerberg into that list, I don't care for Jobs/Zuckerberg much either. Gates I like, but it's not for his political opinions.

a reply to: Tiger5

They're not. It's simply that at their scale they can afford to test anyone. They've actually been known for hiring without a degree for a long time, at a higher rate than other companies. The scale of their operation gives them the opportunity to do so which is something many other companies can't do. What's more interesting is the promotion rates inside the company, which is highly merit based. Those without degrees mostly fall into the camp of slower promotions and ultimately settling at a lower level, a small few excel.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Community Colleges are usually pretty good about this.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Tiger5

Just getting into a class to feed your curiosity without a desire for a degree program is impossible.

Coursera...And a ton of other resources...youtube "classes" or series for example..

The internet has really revolutionized the opportunity to learn without attending University.

originally posted by: Tiger5

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: crankyoldman
I don't think anyone posted the most laughable aspect of this.

The educational system responsible for teaching potential teachers failed at its ability to teach they to read and write.

Too many people here are racing for the lazy ideological rhetoric of teachers suck! Our education system sucks!

Without actually examining the topic.

This test that purported to screen teachers entering the education program...sucked...and a lot of those "tests" do.

Honestly...Why should someone be required to deeply opine on the nuances of Gertrude Stein's life in order to be qualified to teach??

I found a sample question from this test online...Give it a try..

www.ccny.cuny.edu...

The exercise that you denigrate is actually a business skill that is necessary for middle managers in most corporations.

I tried the sample question and got the correct answers.
My issue is that I also believed that a fair argument could be made for some of the "wrong" answers by people that think differently than I.
Also..I don't think the test question was correlated to what makes a good teacher...at all.
I am not saying that the test question was independently "faulty"...only that it challenged the taker in ways that should not be a pivotal measure to exclude a teacher from entering a program designed to teach them how to teach. Empathy, passion for educating and other qualities go a long way in the teaching profession. Teachers don't need to be the most intelligent person in the room at all times...They need to be gifted at facilitating knowledge and encouraging questions and critical thinking.

Either way...Thank you for reading the Q...At least it is a discussion around substance and not headlines....which was my hope.

a reply to: Indigo5

My issue is that I also believed that a fair argument could be made for some of the "wrong" answers by people that think differently than I.

I think I got all but 3 wrong, and that was after I started thinking the way the person that wrote the test was obviously thinking.

That particular test supports what many are saying about today's education being more about indoctrination than learning.

The Church used to be in charge of education. It looks like they never really stopped being in charge.

a reply to: Mclaneinc

I watched the 'fish climbing tree's video' and while it seems a thoughtful attempt at a better taught world its flawed as hell. You simply cannot modify teaching practices to almost individual cases due to a. cost and b. class sizes. Also the video quite happily fails to include the issue of the problem of kids choosing to stay away from school and enter crime, no amount of good schooling will make up for the lure of big bucks and the ability to be a lazy useless member of society.

I graduated in 1969. We had open classrooms, and that is exactly what it did. It provided individual education modules. You progressed at your own pace, and the teachers were free to spend extra time with those that needed extra help.

Children usually fall victim to crime because of failed schooling. We are likely to see less crime if children are adequately educated. If money is their prime motivator then the big bucks they make in a poor neighborhood, doesn't compare to the big bucks that they can make with the proper education, and there is no threat of jail.

I have seen children in crime-ridden areas excel in their education when the proper teacher, material, and commitment was provided. No one chooses to be a lazy useless member of society. They are made lazy useless members of society. At least that is what I have seen to be true.

Of course, you have your own truth.

originally posted by: Indigo5
Coursera...And a ton of other resources...youtube "classes" or series for example..

The internet had really revolutionized the opportunity to learn without attending University.

The problem with all that stuff is that it's the "quick and easy" route. For example the Udacity Nanodegree. Nanodegrees have nano value. A 4 year degree, which means you understand the very basics of a subject contains about 5200 hours worth of lecture and study time (24 relevant classes, at 18 weeks per class, and 12 hours per class per week). These nanodegrees are advertised as 8 hours/week for 6 months (I used this one for reference www.udacity.com...). That's 192 hours, less than 4% of the same instruction time and of a worse quality. Their entire courseload doesn't even equate to the same number of hours as a single semester class and they also charge far more than a single in person class does.

Higher price, lower quality, zero credibility, and you don't even get accreditation to one day build up to something greater out of it.

On top of that, if sitting a student infront of a screen to watch videos all day was an effective teaching tool, we wouldn't send kids to school, we would just have them watch TV all day long.

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
There we go...the liberal way. If you can't hold a job...no problem. If you can't support yourself...no problem. So you steal from Walmart...that's fine. Maybe you're a stupid idiot...teach us.

If the left sinks the bar any lower, we will be electing sea cucumbers President next.

You might win the prize for the most un-informed post of the thread?

Obviously reading beyond the OP headline proved too great a challenge for you?

A+ For political troll verbiage!
F for reading comprehension!

Well...then lets try it this way. If Blacks and Latinos are equals (as I believe they are) they should be able to take the same test and score just as well. There aren't white questions any more than there is white blood, white intelligence or white comprehension. If you are claiming that whites are simply smarter than the other races you named...then just say it. I don't see it that way.

The way you get the best individuals by using a test is to ask the hard, difficult and confusing questions. Let them use their brains and collect the best of the tested group. When you lower the standards of the tests, you get people of lower calibur and if you choose to lower the test for the REASON of assuring more blacks and latinos pass...you are insulting them...or calling them out as not as intelligent / smart...or simply depriving our children of the BEST education possible.

Do Google, Microsoft and Facebook lower the quality of their tests to include more black people? If so...they are calling black people less intelligent than white people and I don't believe that is true. In fact...it is INSULTING to the blacks that CAN pass the tests.

What NY is doing (typical liberal) is lowering the scale to make even the ignorant, acceptable. As they try to lower the social bar to make scum acceptable, lowering the crime bar to allow more criminals to not be classified as criminals and (obviously) lowering the bar on Politicians to allow for the corrupt Clintons, scuzzy Pelosis and criminal DNC.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Indigo5

My issue is that I also believed that a fair argument could be made for some of the "wrong" answers by people that think differently than I.

I think I got all but 3 wrong, and that was after I started thinking the way the person that wrote the test was obviously thinking.

That particular test supports what many are saying about today's education being more about indoctrination than learning.

Not that I disagree, but the word "indoctrination" has a conspiratorial slant.
The test is being scrapped and I don't think their is a giant conspiracy to "indoctrinate" our kids, I just think the companies that provide the "standardization" are grossly incompetent on the topic of actual learning. Talk to any teacher and they will tell you the same thing.

I believe that everyone learns in a slightly different way (sometimes significantly different) and that strict lesson planning down to the minute, purely homogenized methods of teaching and testing, obliterating any opportunity to recognize different ways of learning is simply horrible for our education system. Often some of the brightest students learn differently than the poorly conceived "standard". And thinking critically and differently is contagious in a classroom when that space is afforded for kids to go "off on a tangent" or approach a problem in a different way.

When I was child learning math I always got interested in discovering "tricks"..and luckily I had a teacher that encouraged that.

Multiplication math facts? I didn't like 9's...then I realized any number 1-10 x 9? Subtract 1 from the number for your first number then take the difference to 9 for the second number.

5x9

Subtract 1 from 5 = 4
from 4 to 9? = 5
Answer 45

3x9

Subtract 1 from 3 = 2
From 2 to 9 = 7
answer 27

etc.

Or squares

50 squared is 2500...easy..but what is 48 squared?

48 is 2 less than 50...so take 200 away from 2500 = 2300
Then take the difference between 48 and 50 and square it...2...2x2 is 4..ad that to the 2300
Answer 2304

47 squared...same thing...3 less than fifty..so 300 less than 2500 (which is 50 squared)
That gives you 2200...then add in the difference 3 squared =9
2209

51 squared?...1 more than 50...100 more than 50 squared =2600
the difference between 50 and 51 is 1 ..one squared is 1
51 squared is 2601

37 squared = 1369
50-37 = 13
2500 (50 squared) - 1300 = 1200
13 squared is 169
1200+169 = 1369

Finding different ways to see math is the only thing I found fun about it..

My point is that if you show your kid these kinds of tricks? They get POINTS OFF on their homework..Do it the way you are taught or else! The bulk of the points on the homework (as dictated by the standardized curriculum right down to every point) is solving the problem exactly how they tell you to.

Seeing math from different perspectives is critical to innovation. We shouldn't be trying to create human Abacus's like they do in China.

a reply to: Aazadan

The ones I listed are all highly educated college professors or lawyers in various disciplines ranging from economics to government and public policy with degrees from places like Harvard. Hanson is a historian who has published a lot of books on Greek history and publishes editorials pointing out parallels between what happened in the early Greek city states and their downfall and what he sees going on our days.

And, of course, now it's not that people are uneducated, but that they tell you how to think. That's convenient.

So, how on earth is one supposed to form an opinion? Do you just exist in a vacuum and hope that thoughts osmos into your head? You're making all kinds of assumptions to assume that because something is a blog that facts are not presented.

And, of course, I note that you are here which is full of about 99% opinion, including, I might add, yours. So what is it that you hope to accomplish here? If you truly believe what you wrote, then you aren't doing anything except rank hypocrisy by writing screeds of your own opinion here day after day.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
There we go...the liberal way. If you can't hold a job...no problem. If you can't support yourself...no problem. So you steal from Walmart...that's fine. Maybe you're a stupid idiot...teach us.

If the left sinks the bar any lower, we will be electing sea cucumbers President next.

You might win the prize for the most un-informed post of the thread?

Obviously reading beyond the OP headline proved too great a challenge for you?

A+ For political troll verbiage!
F for reading comprehension!

Well...then lets try it this way. If Blacks and Latinos are equals (as I believe they are) they should be able to take the same test and score just as well.

This is a faulted definition of equal. Culture, ways of thinking and physicality differ in significant ways..."Equality" is the idea that those differences do not make people less or more in their fundamental worth.

No doubt men are better at Football and Boxing than women...Does that make women not "equal"?
Women perform better than men in most Gymnastics events..are they superior to men?
Sickle Cell Anemia effects African Americans. Are they physically inferior to whites?
Etc. etc.

Gender, race, ethnicity, upbringing and culture all effect how we perform in different challenges.
Gender, race, ethnicity, upbringing and culture do not make us any less "equal" to our fellow human beings.

I think that the academic trajectory of many Latino's and African Americans likely did not prepare them to do in depth literary analysis of the biography and life story of Gertrude Stein (sample question I provided).

Most schools in the Latino and African American communities for economic reasons are focused on teaching the fundamentals and likely have less resources to spend time on teaching in depth literary analysis.

In impoverished communities, many of the kids are facing stressors at home (hunger, crime, drugs, violence) which make them a challenge to teachers and teachers are forced to retreat to the delivering the fundamentals vs. less important topics (literary analysis)...and all the students in those schools are subject to that more focused curriculum.

I also believe that does not make them any less likely to potentially be a great teacher, nor less "equal" than their "white" counterparts.

a reply to: Indigo5

See ...

My trick for the 9s was to notice the pattern in the answers:

0 (0x9)
09 (1x9)
18 (2x9)
27 (3x9)
36 (4x9)
45 (5x9)
54 (6x9)
63 (7x9)
72 (8x9)
81 (9x9)
90 (10x9)

As the numbers in the first column go up, the numbers in the second column go down. Each time it's by 1.

a reply to: Indigo5

That's as may be, but in order to be a good teacher, literary analysis skills need to be present. And the ability to analyze literature is something you can do regardless of the passage chosen. I never was taught how to analyze Gertrude Stein in any of my classes either, but because I had the skills, I would have likely done just fine.

And if the skills are part of the job, then they are part of the job regardless of what your educational background prepared you to do at that point. If the black or Latino teacher failed to analyze the passage, then maybe the answer is to go back and pick up a couple courses on how to analyze literature rather than to complain that the test is racist?

a reply to: ketsuko

A fun exploit on the 9 multiplication math facts..Try it on friends

Pick a number 1-9..don't tell me what it is..

Multiply that number times 9....Got it?

Is it a 2 digit number? Add those numbers together...so if it is 25..2+5 = 7...got that total number?

Now subtract 5 from that number...got that number in your head?

Now assign a letter in the alphabet to that number...1 being A, 2 being B, 3 being C...etc..Got that letter?

Now think of a country that begins with that letter...Got that country in your mind? (this sometimes takes a while)

Take the Second letter in that countries name and think of a zoo animal that begins with it..

Got it?.....

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

There are no Elephants in Denmark.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Indigo5

then maybe the answer is to go back and pick up a couple courses on how to analyze literature rather than to complain that the test is racist?

I don't think the complaint was that the test was Racist? The complaint was that a disproportionate number of Black and Latino test takers were not performing well on that test. I don't think tests can be racist, that might be reserved for people. Tests can and often do have inherent or unintended biases though.

I actually think the test is biased toward low-income students, by way of which African Americans and Hispanics represent a disproportionate chunk of in NYC. Past analysis of tests like the SAT for example found low-income communities ...rural white or African American to be the correlation in test performance disparities, not race.

Maybe people just think differently, and the test was made for one way of thinking. Or this was very coincidental, and they hired stupid people.

a reply to: gladtobehere

We sure this isn't from the Onion?