Neurobiology of Transgender

a reply to: Morrad

on topic?

lets talk about the definition game people are playing here. And i quote from one of your links:

"Transsexuality is an individual's unshakable conviction of belonging to the opposite sex,resulting in a request for sex-reassignment surgery.

According that opening statement and definition, the inverse would mean that if the person did not pursue sexual reassignment surgery they would not be included in the "transsexuality" category, would it not?

Isnt there an inherent problem in having this discussion when gender can mean almost anything people want it to mean?

Another way of putting it: how can you have a rational conversation about a phenomenon that by ITS VERY NATURE DERIVES ITS MEANING FROM EACH INDIVIDUALS OWN FEELINGS? (i use the word "feelings" loosely here but if a person "feels" they are not in the "correct" body then the word is apropo is it not?)

Can you answer that question for me: How can we discuss something (hold onto it verbally) when metaphysically/socially/emotionally it is like sand, without form, falling between your fingers?

Also on topic:

As to the first link studying two control groups for microstuctural patters in the white matter. Didnt you notice the elephant in the room? Why no third control group of homosexual males and females for comparison? Why are we pretending that the only groups worth comparing to each other are cisgendered males/females and transsexual f2m and m2f? Seems like theyre failing to include a group which could shed even more light on the theory.

Also, why not taking into account the potential role of endocrine mimicking chemicals in our environment? As if thats an inconsequential factor in human brain development when we KNOW fetuses are sporting rocketfuel and pesticides in their blood in utero along with many other unsavory chemical delights.


Care to weigh in?

a reply to: Ridhya

The whole otherkin deflection is such a stupid slippery slope argument

So one is stupid and the other isn't? If one identifies with something that they were born different from it is stupid, unless it isn't stupid. The universe seems to confuse people. What if the Universe is saying this is what I made you, learn to accept yourself for how I made you and you will learn to be a more accepting person. I don't know. As long as people are happy to each their own.

originally posted by: 3daysgone
...If one identifies with something that they were born different from it is stupid, unless it isn't stupid.

And here's where the popular transgender narrative goes off the rails and I wish we could go back a couple of years and quash this "I identify as..." business in the bud. Contrary to the common opinion of some, being genuinely trans has nothing to do with identity politics. "I identify as..." is simply a limitation of language. It's a dumbing down of concepts that are extremely difficult to convey linguistically.

There are several other memes, some going back to the 1950's and Christine Jorgensen that are also frequently used such as "born in/trapped in the wrong body" and these have been repeated and reused because quite simply, there is no other way to explain the sense of having gender dysphoria to someone that doesn't because it comes from a deep part of the psyche that lacks the language or ability to put into words what it is like. It is also just being lazy.

In transgender children, one of the diagnostic criteria that's looked for is the verbalization that they ARE the opposite gender, not that they "want to be" and not that they "feel like" the opposite gender -- that they ARE. This is not the same as the blue haired teenager that "identifies" with one of the 76 Tumblr/Facebook "genders" and demands zir and ze and whatever gender neutral pronouns. Unfortunately, most people are unable to make a distinction and lump a social phenomenon (identity politics) in with a medical condition.

Throughout the years, and particularly before inclusion in the DSM when the terminology was standardized somewhat, what is now called gender dysphoria was previously called different things and at one point fairly early on, a distinction was made between primary, which was also called true or classic and secondary (adult onset) transsexualism. We no longer make these distinctions partly because they are offensive and there was political influence to change them so then we had gender dysphoria syndrome which became gender identity disorder which is now simply gender dysphoria.

To tie all this into the topic of this thread, let's go back in time for a minute and look at this primary/classic/true etiology of transsexualism. If these terms were still used, they are what would be applied to the young transgender kids of today, the ones that say they ARE the opposite gender, persistently, consistently and insistently over time. This happens early and it can only be because of the way the brain is wired because it coincides with the earliest awareness of one's own gender, usually forming around two years of age and becoming firmly established usually by age four. What five year old isn't sure about being a boy or a girl?

I can't put this into words any better than anyone else can but I'll tell you how all this worked for me. In the earliest memories I have of my life, I knew myself to be a girl. This is something I've never doubted or questioned. I didn't "feel like" a girl - I WAS a girl in my heart and soul but what I didn't understand and what didn't make sense was why I was in the body of a boy?

I was raised mostly on a farm as a young child and knew the difference between male and female and besides that, my parents had always told me I was a boy so what was the deal? I was also raised with the concept of an all seeing, all powerful sky god that was in charge of everything and angels and all that hooey and came to the conclusion that somehow a mistake had been made and that my "soul" got accidentally popped into the body of a boy. Pretty deep thoughts for a five year old child but that was how I initially came to understand what was going on for me... that somebody goofed. It's also pretty heavy to grow up thinking you're a mistake.

But I wasn't confused for a second about being a girl because I just was, full stop. What confused me was why I was male.



How in the world does a kid, that lived on a rural farm in the 1950's with no brothers or sisters that hadn't even been to kindergarten yet come up with this stuff if it is not something hard wired in the brain from birth? Nobody made me this way. There were no external influences other than those telling me I should behave like a boy and that one day I would grow up to be a man.

I did neither.

So did "god" do this or is it the neurobiology/wiring/structures of my brain? Take your pick. (I don't believe in god)

a reply to: tribal

i mean youre welcome to your beliefs dude.

This new fad of "ignoring science to push political beliefs" is getting pathetic, man. YOU were the one who refused to read any of the science of hormone and chemical differences between people. And of course you were the one who said abused children could never get over it, which I proved you wrong and you ignored.

It literally was only a few years ago that gender identity anomalies were called DISORDERS in the very psychiatric manuals that more recently have changed their nomenclature to be less offensive. I say thats the result of a very powerful lobby

It had nothing to do with offense, but with accuracy. A disorder by definition has to disrupt the regular functioning of people, which transgenderism (like homosexuality before it) did not interrupt daily functioning. The same reason there is a debate whether or not "successful psychopaths" are disordered, when they are typically at the top of the social hierarchy.

Why do you think homosexuality has anything to do with transgenderism? Homosexual people have no gender issues.





a reply to: 3daysgone
Way to ignore everything I just said. I didn't say otherkin were stupid, I said your argument was stupid. You're deliberately leaving out that gender is genetically determined in humans, but we do not have the possibility to be born a different species. Im just repeating myself to two brick walls here, so reread my previous post if you actually desire to learn something.

a reply to: tribal

Transsexuality is an individual's unshakable conviction of belonging to the opposite sex,resulting in a request for sex-reassignment surgery.

According that opening statement and definition, the inverse would mean that if the person did not pursue sexual reassignment surgery they would not be included in the "transsexuality" category, would it not?

I am guessing you only read the abstract. Transsexuality, in the context of this paper, relates to the extreme end of gender dysphoria.

From the study:

Transsexuality is the most extreme gender-identity disorder, distinguished by the unshakable conviction of belonging to the opposite sex, which often leads to a request for sex-reassignment surgery (Blanchard, 1993; Cohen-Kettenis and Gooren, 1999). Most of the current hypotheses on the possible cause of transsexuality presume a combination of a genetic background and an early organizational effect on the interaction of sex hormones with the developing brain during critical fetal periods (Green and Keverne, 2000; Van Goozen et al., 2002; Swaab, 2003b, 2004; Henningsson et al., 2005; Bentz et al., 2008; Berglund et al., 2008; Ramachandran and McGeoch, 2007, 2008; Swaab, 2007). It should be noted that sexual differentiation of the brain occurs later in development and can, therefore, in principle be influenced independently of genital sexual differentiation (Swaab, 2007). The resulting modifications in brain structures in transsexual people are hypothesized to be the basis of the gender-identity disorder. Our BSTc findings support this hypothesis.

Why would a study that is comparing transsexual and cis gender INAH3 and INAH4 require a homosexual control group? Previous studies have already established that homosexual males have less INAH3 than heterosexual men. Why would the authors of paper want to repeat this work when it not part of the study focus? The BNSTc is larger in homosexual men than heterosexual men. In MTF transexxuals the BNSTc is smaller which is comparable to cis females. Neurobiology of homosexuality is well established. You can find an overview here at Wikipedia.

Neuroscience and sexual orientation

Here is an extract:

Gray matter is a major part of the central nervous system that is composed mostly of neuronal cell bodies. While men generally have greater amounts of grey and white matter than women (due to men’s larger body mass and consequently larger brain size), women generally possess a greater grey matter-to-white matter ratio and thicker layers of grey matter in specific cortical areas compared to men.[54][55] It has been found that homosexual women have relatively less gray matter than heterosexual women in the ventral cerebellum, left ventral premotor cortex, temporo-basal cortex, and most significantly, in the left perirhinal cortex. No difference in amount of gray matter was found between heterosexual and homosexual men.[54]"

Also, why not taking into account the potential role of endocrine mimicking chemicals in our environment? As if thats an inconsequential factor in human brain development when we KNOW fetuses are sporting rocketfuel and pesticides in their blood in utero along with many other unsavory chemical delights."

Have you any evidence to back this up? Someone else mentioned these endocrine mimicking chemicals in the water supply. The chemicals the poster mentioned are actually banned in the EU and is not present in domestic water supplies. You also have to factor in transsexuality and homosexuality being around far longer than these manufactured products/by-products.

a reply to: Ridhya

Way to ignore everything I just said. I didn't say otherkin were stupid, I said your argument was stupid. You're deliberately leaving out that gender is genetically determined in humans, but we do not have the possibility to be born a different species. Im just repeating myself to two brick walls here, so reread my previous post if you actually desire to learn something.

Yeah I apologize. I do see the difference. We are all made of the same stuff. Which ever hormone is dominate is what is considered the determining factor.