Neurobiology of Transgender

a reply to: Morrad
It always boggles me how people think that they are a body with a mind crammed in. You are not your body, you are your mind. That's not coming from a transgendered person, or some new age spiritist, but as a psychologist. People are their minds. And it's not some societal force creating transgenderism, it has existed since mankind did. Nature always trumps nurture eventually. Good effort to educate people rather than make it something political.


a reply to: 3daysgone
Literally all things are in your head man. The universe is filtered through your perception, and your mind is the processor. A better conclusion you should have come to is, "this is all confirmed by biology".

originally posted by: dashen
So are you saying gender dysphoria in men can be cured with testosterone?

No. In fact that could have the opposite effect.

a reply to: ColdWisdom

yeah, i dont think ill be reading 7 pages of "maybe" "possibly" "potentially" and so on. But thanks for the link anyway.


I dont think the science is anywhere near where it needs to be to figure this out yet. And until the time that it is, I dont believe we should be making sweeping policies that force up to 99 percent of the population to be uncomfortable so that 1 percent or less of the population can be. And i can make that argument without any moral or ethical underpinnings. Just look at the raw numbers....99 percent versus 1 or less percent of a thing that we cannot even put under the microscope with definitive proof of what it means, unlike skin color and plumbing which are both OBJECTIVE REALITIES that can be scientifically measured.

if its about science that is....there are plenty of people that want to pick and choose what evidence to use as rationale.

a reply to: Ridhya

nature always trumps nurture? in what context? certainly not in the relatively short lifespan of a human being. You cant tell me that a person who has suffered the most inhumane abuse for the formative years of their life and then all the sudden has a perfectly normal life is going to be able to move beyond that. The very structures of the brain are altered PERMANENTLY from those formative experiences. Thats NURTURE baby, and you better believe it can be and often is WAY more powerful than nature, ESPECIALLY when it comes to those early, formative and most POTENT childhood experiences.

a reply to: Ridhya

Literally all things are in your head man. The universe is filtered through your perception, and your mind is the processor. A better conclusion you should have come to is, "this is all confirmed by biology".

Why did the universe filter in gender then? For species reproduction? I say let people be who they want to be, but genes do not lie about factual gender.

People should be happy. There is also Otherkin that identify as animals. Is there something in their brain that makes them actual other animals?

a reply to: 3daysgone

GOOD MF'n point Sir!

yeah, the "otherkin" phenomenon pretty much lays waste to the postulate that gender dysphoria is a perfectly normal function of human psychology/physiology or otherwise.

And lets talk about body integrity identity disorder (BIID) shall we? People that feel like their body parts dont really belong to them so they want to cut them off??? Are you frickin kidding me?

Yeah, so let common sense rule here...people who have these issues are not right in the head, and thats unfortunate. Guess what, they are not alone. ALL of us have weirdness associated with the "ghost in the machine" existence that we have. We DO absolutely need to show nothing but love and concern for every person who openly speaks of their body struggles, but normalizing it is SO TOTALLY not the answer.

a reply to: tribal

yeah, i dont think ill be reading 7 pages of "maybe" "possibly" "potentially" and so on. But thanks for the link anyway.

You asked for empirical scientific literature outlining the objective correlations of homosexuality.

I delivered.

Never mind the countless threads and posts I've made that actually corroborate your simplistic summation of the topic.

You may now wallow in your own diluted self ignorance.

Peace.

a reply to: ColdWisdom

ok.....maybe it was....but i did say thank you, did i not? And i meant it.

however, i did NOT ask for a 7 page whackamole style "article" citing all kinds of "this study says this" and "these people report that". I was specifically asking if it was known that there was a consensus among the LGBTQ community of what THEY think is the cause or underlying factors for their inclinations/attractions/nature etc. If it takes 7 pages of blah blah blah to tell me that i dont consider it a good use of my time to try to dig for the little nugget.

different strokes man

I was not aware that 60% of males who have their penis removed due to penile cancer

Thanks. Now I have one more thing to worry about. I didn't even know this was a thing...

a reply to: tribal

I was specifically asking if it was known that there was a consensus among the LGBTQ community of what THEY think is the cause or underlying factors for their inclinations/attractions/nature etc.

The answer is no, there isn't a consensus. Because the LGBTQ whatever is a social construct of people that think they own the thoughts and decisions of an entire population of people.

I'm gay, by the way. And I reject most of what comes from the so called LGBTQ establishment.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: Freija

I thought about this issue some more and having read your post this morning I agree with making a differentiation. I remember in the 80s and 90s the term was pre-op transsexual or transsexual.

No, no, no! This pre-op/post-op bull# is even worse! The reason we don't make the transgender/transsexual distinction or use pre-op/post-op anymore is because it is totally un-cool to ask any trans person about what's in their pants or focus on what genitals they have. By far the vast majority of transgender people do not have sex change surgery but it is wholly and completely wrong to invalidate who they are as people by reducing them to what's between their legs.

There is no right way to be trans and everyone is different. It is up to the individual. Having surgery of any kind is not required and many don't. Others may have several surgeries such as facial feminization surgery (FFS), trachea shave, breast augmentation, etc. It is really no one's business but their own so let's stop objectifying trans people's bodies and worrying about their junk.

There's plenty written and many YouTube videos on "what not to ask a trans person" and asking if they have had "the surgery" is usually at the top of most lists. That's pretty offensive but what you might find is that people that have had SRS will let you know voluntarily should being trans even be a topic of discussion at all. Most of us would rather forget the whole thing entirely as being trans is personal and only a small aspect of the bigger picture of who we are as people.

originally posted by: tribal
yeah, the "otherkin" phenomenon pretty much lays waste to the postulate that gender dysphoria is a perfectly normal function of human psychology/physiology or otherwise.

And lets talk about body integrity identity disorder (BIID) shall we? People that feel like their body parts dont really belong to them so they want to cut them off??? Are you frickin kidding me?

Oh Jeesus! Not another pop/lay psychologist? Otherkin and BIID or BDD are separate and distinct things from gender dysphoria. Sure, it's easy to make comparisons in your uneducated mind because they seem similar but professionals actually have the education, knowledge and experience to not conflate these things with one another. You don't.

I'll waste no more time on this silliness but if you actually wish to read more about this:

Stop Confusing Gender Dysphoria With Body Dysmorphia Already

a reply to: tribal
You seem to be talking about traumatic conditioning, not human nature. But regardless, severely abused children can return to their normal lives through therapy. Case in point:

Human nature always comes through. Great example would be those dumb "pray away the gay" camps where they can suppress, but not overwrite, homosexuality. I've counselled a few people who had been through things like that and were essentially pressured into living straight lives, but it was clear they were suffering from it. Same thing goes for things like creativity, you can force a creative child to work in a boring factory, but it will still show through in various ways.

So, quite simply, you're wrong.




a reply to: 3daysgone
The "universe" (or god, nature, whatever) seemed to like adding separate genders as a way of recombining dna and filtering out bad mutations, adding in good ones. Almost like an antivirus program.

Sex chromosomes originated as autosomes, as far as I understand that hearkens back to the time when sex wasn't determined by chromosomes. In other words, you weren't born separate genders, and many animals are still like that today (like groupers). who knows how many ways things can mess up in the development process.

The whole otherkin deflection is such a stupid slippery slope argument - like when people say "homosexuality should be banned because pedophilia will be next". Our genetics have the capability of making us male or female, or both even, but not lizard (well, unless you ask David Icke). But hey, even if you want to go that route - technically mammals evolved from reptiles a long ass time ago.

Those lizard/dog kin speak language, use their hands, computers, which is proof in and of itself it's not a genuine species dysphoria. More like a mild personality disorder. It's a comforting way of dealing with the world.
Think about kids. We all pretended to be dinosaurs. People didn't truly believe we were, but in the moment we truly were dinosaurs. It's more of a defensive dynamic in a harsh world (for kids it's a lack of power, and dinosaurs represent power).
Now a child "raised by wolves" - that's a true species dysphoria. But even that can be cured!
(nature - 1 nurture - 0!)

a reply to: Freija

I think you misread me. I would not refer to anyone as anything other than an individual in RL and I most certainly would not be intrusive. I was just referring to something from a different era. If you remember I recovered MTF SRS individuals in post-anaesthetic care. At that time we used those terms in a clinical way. Sorry I did not make that clear.

a reply to: Ridhya

In all regards, if nurture reigned supreme over nature, I would have grown up a normal little boy because dog knows that was what my parents wanted and tried to do. In some respects, this was traumatizing because every aspect of my young life was gender policed and contrary to my intrinsic nature and I simply didn't understand and resisted causing much turmoil. Fortunately, as an adult I was able to reconcile some of these things and put these traumas behind me and deal with some of the shame and guilt I was made to feel for being different. I don't blame anyone for this. Back then, who knew but in today's world, those that try to pray away or beat the gay or being trans out of a kid should be shot.

But, my basic nature and who I am as a person shone through all this programming and as I gained agency as a young teen, my spirit and heart came to be more recognized allowing my inner concept of self to be actualized. In other words, all the conditioning in the world did not overrule who I naturally am. Against all odds, nature or the way I was wired definitely won.

(nature - 2, nurture - 0!)

a reply to: Morrad

Oh no, I didn't misread you at all so no worries. I was just sharing some background and reasoning for the way I use language the way I do and because I get directly dragged into this and categorized and lumped in with others, my usage of same may be different or less politically correct than others? That's my prerogative. It's like within your own circle of gay friends, calling your buddy a faggot is more a term of familiarity or endearment than an offense and being a member of a sub-group does come with certain privilege that outsiders don't enjoy.

Trans people are allowed to call themselves whatever they want but in polite conversation and for reasons of political correctness, transgender is the preferred term these days because using multiple terms already confuses people that are already confused enough and it is really unfair to categorize trans people by what parts they have. Me? I personally prefer to make the distinction that my body is female and think transsexual conveys that better. Somebody is liable to yell at me for this because it does manage to come across as being elitist but it isn't, it's just different.

a reply to: Freija

Thank you for standing up and being who you are. I don't understand all the scientific mumbo jumbo presented in this thread and won't pretend too.

a reply to: Freija

propagation of the species is hardware dependent when it comes to humans. Aside from that anyone is welcome to feel or think of themselves however they want. But expecting, and especially, FORCING the other 99 percent to change their language (and other things) to suit you is tyranny. Politeness and accommodation aside you cannot reasonably expect people who dont even know you to bow down to the new social paradigm the social architects and engineers are trying to force upon society. Not buying, sorry.

as to the other "dysmorphias". Your criticism of my view is dependent upon "soft science" at best. Hard science looks at an organism from a functional standpoint and what can be directly observed and studies. Whats in a persons head (unless its structural) cannot be directly observed and studied. In fact, we cant even study the neurotransmitters in peoples brains to know exactly how psych meds are working, its almost totally hit and miss. With that kind of infancy in the treatment of mind issues (not brain, mind) its beyond irrational to dictate policy to what are mostly binary people to accommodate a phenomenon we are only barely beginning to understand in scientific terms.

another thing...you cannot discount the role political correctness has had in how we talk about and deal with transgender issues. It literally was only a few years ago that gender identity anomalies were called DISORDERS in the very psychiatric manuals that more recently have changed their nomenclature to be less offensive. I say thats the result of a very powerful lobby of entities putting pressure on that very small segment of the scientific/medical community and that is not how science is supposed to go at ALL.


all that being said, i could care less about how a person wants to live their lives. I love diversity. I love the freakshow that is humanity. As a child i loved looking through the National Geographics at all the people with ostrich necks and plates in their lips and ritual scarring and all of that. I LOVE IT! But hey, dont make laws that tell me how to behave or talk. Once you go there i will come out swinging.

a reply to: Ridhya

i mean youre welcome to your beliefs dude. i think its hilarious how people seek out the information that confirms what they believe or want to believe. We all do it.

Human nature. What is human nature? Ill tell you what human nature is. Put 10 people out in the wild with nothing and see what happens. The people that adapt and live, thats human NATURE. So what is that "thing" inside a human that can do that? Its the same thing thats in every other living thing: a will to live. Some creatures have it, some dont....and we never really know if we have it until we have to use it.

Beyond that, its mostly window dressing. All the art and music and fun stuff that we invent.....thats all great, but has it stopped us from mass murder? going to war? nuclear bombs? nope. Hasnt done a DAMN thing. So wheres your human nature then?

you know what else is human nature? reproduction. Those that can reproduce will keep the species alive. That is the single most basic metric and measurement of any species that ever made it - could they propagate the species.

All this stuff about gender identity.....thats window dressing. That doesnt fly in darwins world. If you dont reproduce, you die and so does your gene pool.

End the end, it doesnt matter if you want to do males or you want to do females, or if you want to do goats (some countries do). If you cant either impregnate or become pregnant....evolution will deal you out of the hand.

Can you argue with that?

So, when it comes to "theres 354 genders!" i consider that pretty much total NONSENSE. At the end of the day if you cant either impregnate or become pregnant...of what evolutionary value or use or purpose are those genders?


Ah but wait....now we have technology to come and save the day, dont we? Now we can cheat nature. Ah, but what are we if we cheat nature and take ourselves out of evolution? Is that still your "human nature" ? Then we are no longer a part of nature.....we are something else. And perhaps that has been the goal all along. As many have pointed out, the gender debate seems all too familiar to those who are well acquainted with the social engineers of old, going all the way back to Plato's Republic where he advocated a State run eugenics program.

And now we have State sponsored, media propagated, debate about what makes us male and female, to the point of obfuscating and confusing the most basic irrefutable truth about what allows a species to continue its lineage - the plumbing.

So you all can carry on as long as you want about how people "feel"......it literally makes zero difference to the most important issue a species faces which is how to keep its gene pool alive. And i guarantee you, without the intervention of emerging technology youre quite right, nature DOES win after all.

a reply to: tribal

This thread is not about your problems with social issues.

tribal,

Please stay on topic. Presenting a false dilemma does not equate to critiquing the research I posted.