The Jesus Conspiracy

Originally posted by Iasion
Do YOU believe in the magic plates of the Mormons?
We have a dozen signed, named and dated eye-witness accounts that they were real - do YOU believe it?

The Quran says the moon split in two - do YOU believe that?

can anyone expand on these two? I may get an education on this thread after all.

[edit on 15-2-2005 by saint4God]

Greetings again,

Well then Iasion - may I ask just what "Factual" Religion you Believe in & Practice?

What is a "Factual" religion?

You think religions are about facts?

Then why did you say this :

I just occurred to me how Silly this thread has become! We are talking about applying "Evidence" & "Proof" & "Fact" to "Religion" & "Faith"!

Now it is my turn to say PARDON ME?!! How DARE YOU!!! First of all you do not know me!

It's obvious FROM YOUR POSTS that you do not understand the history and facts of Christianity.

For instance, you claimed :
"There is a Question to whether St. Paul ever met Jesus in the Flesh."

This is nonsese - any Christian who knew the basics would know that Paul did not meet Jesus in the flesh.

You also claimed that Paul named the four Gospels.
This is obviously false (to anyone who has studied the issues.)
When you found out you were wrong - you answered :
"Big Deal"

In other words - you know you are wrong, and you don't care.

Nor do you know about my Religious Affiliations! Do you Realize how many Sects of Christianity are in Existence? Did you know that I practice not only Christianity but also Buddhism? I have Studied & Practiced Plenty of other Religions as well! I consider myself a Mystic. I also consider myself a Free Thinking Intellectual! I am an Individual that also uses Science, Reason & Logic as Tools!

Rubbish.
You have not cited a single source or reference in ANY of your posts that I can see - not one scholar, book or web site - nothing - there is no science, reason or logic in your posts.

Instead, you post your BELIEFS over and over.
You never provided a single reference for ANY of your claims.
You ignored the issues raised by many people including myself.

Might I point out that you yourself Offer NO PROOF that Jesus didn't Exist - only other Peoples Opinions!! My Opinion is that he did Exist!

This is so far from the truth its ridiculous.
I posted numerous lengthy essays filled with facts - dates, names, documents.
I cited many references that you can check - books, scholars, web-sites.

You IGNORED ALL the evidence I presented, and just kept re-stating your FAITHFUL BELIEFS.

What - I am not allowed to Dis-Agree with you? Am I automatically wrong because I Dis-Agree with You? You need to work on your Debating Skills my friend!

You can believe anything you like.
But,
if you want to convince others of your beliefs, you will need to do more than just preach them over and over.

Now I Under stand that Jesus was a Rebel in many ways - But I find "B" absolutely INSULTING! It is like going up to a Jewish person & saying "The Holocaust Never Happened - You Whiners made it all up"! Insulting no?

It is YOU who are insulting.
You have clearly not studied the history of Christianity at all, instead YOU INSULTED me when I presented evidence that disagrees with you.
Did you provide any evidence for your beliefs?
No.
You just preached your beliefs, and insulted (e.g. "whiners") those who disagreed with you.

Please take your Anti-Christian Agenda somewhere else!

Ah,
so now the truth comes out.
You don't want to debate - you want anyone who disagrees with you to be ejected.
You REALLY believe that only YOU are right don't you?
So anyone who does not agree with you should be banned from the site?

DO you realise how bigoted and close-minded you sound?

Yes - just look at the History of our Species on this Planet. How much War & Violence & Murder is enough - especially when it is KILLING in the name of "God, Creed & Religion"!

Indeed yes,
intolerant religious belief is a stain on humanity.

It is exactly this sort of ignorant religious bigotry that caused the Crusades,
exactly this sort of religious intolerance that leads to abortion clinic bombs,
exactly this sort of religious bigotry that sees minorities persecuted.

Exactly the sort of ignorant religious bigotry we see in your posts.

Iasion

First of all I did not Post this line -> "There is a Question to whether St. Paul ever met Jesus in the Flesh." - it was a QUOTE! I then state that Paul had a Vision of Jesus Post Crucifixion - but never met him in the Flesh - in a Reply! Not really reading the Posts on this Thread I see!

Secondly - it is YOU that are applying "Evidence", "Facts" & "History" to Religion! To the Religion of Christianity in Particular (Questioning the Existence of Jesus & Validity of the Gospels)! You continue to Critique Christianity all day long - yet you are NOT a Christian! Do me a favor - continue to Read your History Books if you like – but please Dis-Continue Insulting Christianity! If I say "I Believe that Christ is a GOD" - then this is my RIGHT that you will NEVER be able to Dis-Prove!

Still not answering my questions I see! Well if you are not an Atheist then what are you? Let me guess - you are a JEW! Now let me quote a Line from Said Gospel of Thomas:

(71) “Jesus said: I will Destroy this House and None shall able to build it again. "

Wow - could this be why you Hate Christianity & Christians so much? Can you say "BIAS"???

P.S. Christianity is a RELIGION about Beliefs & Faith – one that YOU are trying to Disprove somehow (like that is possible) with so called “Facts & Evidence” of events that happened 2000 YEARS ago! Hmm… Lets see using this same Tactic I can Probably do the same thing to Judaism that you are trying (and Failing BTW) to do to Christianity – “Disprove” it! Did anyone ever meet any of the Figures in the Old Testament? Is there any
“Proof or Evidence” that anything in the Old Testament is “Factually True”?

Just making a point – I have nothing against Jewish People! In addition I did not say that you should be banned from this site! But I can not ignore the fact that you OBVIOUSLY have something against Christians & the Religion of Christianity! Did you just assume that I was Ignorant just because I am a Christian - well you should not Stereotype us all! Let me assure you that I am Not Ignorant - I can Hold my Own as you can see!


[edit on 15-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Quoting Iasion:

Quote: "To the Ancients a Spiritual Heavenly being REALLY EXISTED!
A being who lived in Heaven was no less extant than one who lived on earth. "

This applies to more than just the Ancients - this applies for many Christians today - it doesn't matter if Jesus was an actual Man - for me "Christ" is a Spiritual Being!

Quote: "Originally Jesus was seen as a SPIRITUAL BEING of some sort."

He still is! Like I said there are many sects of Christianity! I hold Jesus' MESSAGE as Most Crucial -
NOT his Birth, Death & Resurrection!

Quote: "My argument is that Jesus was never a Historical, Physical Being."

Fine have it your way - but in the end it doesn't matter - it doesn't Change a thing! Christianity is a Religion. Obviously if Jesus was a Real Historical Man - it would not be the same as the "Christ" that was elevated to Divine/Deity Status!

Quote: "Religions are part of History."

Ah Yes - but you forget to Factor in Politics - which is also part of History in the Real-Time Making! I could start a New Religion Tomorrow - how long do you think that it will take to make it into the History Books? As you know the Winner of any War or Conflict gets to write the History books! Do you think that any Errors or Manipulations (that I did not intend for the Religion that I just Created) would end up in the "Holy Book" of said Religion?

******************************************************************************************

Quote: "I would respect each and every one of you if you would come forward and say, "You're right, there's no historical evidence of Jesus. However, I still believe that he existed and was the Son of God. I don't need proof; I have faith in spite of the evidence."

Well LunaNik - does this do it for you? I guess you were wrong! I have Faith in a "Spiritual Christ" even if the Evidence of a "Historical Jesus" is Lacking!


[edit on 16-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

``

There's a new (well, as of June 21st) article appearing on rense.com index

titled: Behind The Bible Fraud.......
by: Robert Adams, New Dawn Magazine.com

there are numberous links in the text, which address the sometimes questionable existence of Jesus...as either a single person or as a set of brothers or even as a bits & pieces from several different characters over a span of years(a blend of myths)

also, the article and the several 'replies' , cover a wider range of contentions....such as Constantines' bundlingup the 'Christianity package'.
multiple Jesui or kristos? et al
also the supposed 'Golden Paragraph' by Josephus, which Christians claim as a 'proof' that Christ existed
and the contrairian view, Excerpt-> (In fact, Origen actually said
that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ")

lots more, at: www.rense.com...

This is what i think has happened over the course of time. I think they took the man of Galilee,( a rebel) that taught a different God, not the ones the Jews followed, and they mixed him up into mythology. Its a fact the New Testament was written for a Greek audience. Its based on Mythology, if anyone studies this they will see. Personally i think John The Baptist was the true messenger, and they have mixed him up as well with The Jesus story. (this my opinion) If one would study Greek Mythology, then one can`t deny this, They have Jesus ( Greek-Latin name) hybrid) and have turned the man of galilee into a greek roman pagan figuare.
( Fact also, Sir francis Bacon edited the King James Bible) The Bible as we have it has been edited and re-written so many times that whos to know what really was taught then, Its all been hid away by the Roman Church and covered up ( the truth) that i personally think alot has got lost in translation.
John Baptist was a true figuare this we have proof of, There are many today that still follow his teachings. But The Jesus thats written in the Bible, how they have this man written as, theres more proof he didnt exist then there is he did. There is however (his story) based on mythology. so go figuare. i myself believe this man taught and he taught against what the Jews believed. The Romans had the power so they had him turned over to the Romans to be killed, he was getting to many followers, he was a threat to the Church, meaning if the people followed this man the Church would lose power and then money and lose control over the people. This is what i believe why he was put to death.
Its all over Money power control.! this same system has been working for thousands of years. If you have Power and money you have control of the people.

Quote: "This is what I think has happened over the course of time. I think they took the man of Galilee (a Rebel) that taught a different God, not the ones the Jews followed, and they mixed him up into mythology. Its a fact the New Testament was written for a Greek audience. Its based on Mythology, if anyone studies this they will see."

Me Thinks... People are finally starting to catch onto the Truth!

Tell me what is the difference between YahVeh/Jehovah & Zeus/Jupiter?

Nothing, it is the *SAME GOD* - it is ALL MYTHOLOGY - but it is still important stuff to know about - look into it, you will see that I am telling the Truth! You will realize that Christianity is Judaism that was Altered by Pagan Philosophy/Belief as to find it palatable!

P.S. That last part about the Politics Inherent in Religion was very Intuitive!

" In Creating their state religion, the christian conspirators not only founded the worlds greatest forgery, but went on a censorship rampage that silenced millions of dissident voices by murder and destroyed books temples, statues,inscriptions and other traces of the previous cultures, eventually leading to immense IGNORANCE and virtual ILLITERACY of the western world.
It was always important for religious authorities to CONTROL Literature and to gain the legal right to destroy books that contradicted their own teachings.

Moses is attributed to writing the first five books of the bible, yet the very fact of him writing about his own death and burial at the close of deuteronomy proves he could not of been the author of this book. Many bible scholars have even dated the writing of deuteronomy some 600 yrs after his time. The story of Moses as a baby being placed in a basket and floated down a river, has also been shown to be copied from an earlier pagan story of Sargon of Akkad(2334-2279 B.C.) who in infancy, was saved from danger by being put in a Basket of Rushes, sealed with pitch and floated down a river. ( sound familiar?)

Quote: "Moses is attributed to writing the first five books of the bible, yet the very fact of him writing about his own death and burial at the close of Deuteronomy proves he could not of been the author of this book. Many bible scholars have even dated the writing of Deuteronomy some 600 yrs after his time."

Yes once again - LITERAL Interpreters of ANY Scripture are shown that their Method of Interpretation is Faulty!

Quote: "The story of Moses as a baby being placed in a basket and floated down a river, has also been shown to be copied from an earlier pagan story of Sargon of Akkad(2334-2279 B.C.) who in infancy, was saved from danger by being put in a Basket of Rushes, sealed with pitch and floated down a river. ( sound familiar?)."

Yes - Hercules I believe was also Floated down a River as a Baby (as well as being the Son of a "GOD" - a.k.a. Zeus & a Mortal Woman - Sound Familiar?)!

The name "Jesus Christ" was unknown until after the Nicean Council. It appeared in no writings before this time. there was frequent mention of christos and his worship to the east of rome, but nowhere can be found any authentic mention at that time of a Jesus Christ. it was not after the council of Nicean that the name was ever known to the world!

This stuff is Fascinating - Chasrac64! Don't you agree?!

Is there any information that you have on Scientific Dating done on Archeologically Discovered Individual Gospels (Canonized & Non-Canonized)? They are in Koine Greek, Coptic & Aramaic of-course! If one Dates back to the 200-300 A.D. Range (i.e. PRE Council of Nicea = 325 A.D.)would that not Invalidate the point that you made earlier?

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

if you want to convince others of your beliefs, you will need to do more than just preach them over and over.

Isn't that what religion is all about? All religions. Kinda like claiming Al Gore said, "I invented the internet." He never did. The point is keep repeating the mantra, and the sheep will pick up and believe.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
This stuff is Fascinating - Chasrac64! Don't you agree?!

Is there any information that you have on Scientific Dating done on Archeologically Discovered Individual Gospels (Canonized & Non-Canonized)? They are in Koine Greek, Coptic & Aramaic of-course! If one Dates back to the 200-300 A.D. Range (i.e. PRE Council of Nicea = 325 A.D.)would that not Invalidate the point that you made earlier?

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Actually i will look for more info into this and get back with you. I have alot of books that i study and this is my favorite subject. I research the internet also but have more books on this. I will look into this. I truely believe that the vatican library has alot of this info were all looking for. they keep alot of stuff locked up for only the few selected. The ones responsible for the deception are the only ones to veiw this. i have this info though, from Harpers Dictionary, (1961) it states that most all of the remaining Epistles such as 1thessalonians and 2 an 1 an 2 timothy and titus which are suppose to be of Paul`s authorship are seriously questioned on historical,theological ,ecclesiastical and literary grounds, the only remaining epistle believed to be that of Pauls is Galatians,and even this according to Harpers is surrounded by critical difficulties. The dates given to the original 4 gospels has been estimated as Mark ( 70-100 ad) Luke about 100 ad Matthew 100-110 ad ( i also heard matt.chapter 1 and 2 were added 100 yrs later after this date) without this no virgin birth) John 100 to 160) my ? is why did they all wait this long to write and how can you remember every detail? okay and the FIRST writer to ever mention all four gospels are "IRENAEUS" who flourished about 200 ad. Theres so much here but i will look into the part you want to know and get back with ya.

Quote: "Mark ( 70-100 A.D.) Luke about 100 A.D. Matthew 100-110 A.D. ( I also heard matt. chapter 1 and 2 were added 100 yrs later after this date)... John 100 to 160)."

WOW - as far back as 100 A.D. ! Isn't it possible that someone who witness the ENTIRE EVENT - who was in their early 20's when it happened - could have given a fairly Accurate Account of the Event that could have ended up in a Gospel written in 100 A.D.

I do agree with you on Chapter 1 of Matthew however! This is a good example of "Working Backwards". They must try to link Jesus to the Bloodline of "David & Israel" & to the Judaic Religion - even if Jesus taught something more akin to Gnosticism - which later became the Religion & Institution of Christianity!

I think what you meant to say is that their was a "Jesus Christ" that was Created & DEIFIED at the Council of Nicea!

Jesus never claimed to be "GOD" - Roman Catholicism declared him so - he claimed that we are
*ALL the Children of the Living God* - so in that case we should all treat each other with Respect & Compassion. We should Love each other, Live in Peace & Worship the Divine!

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

we have no originals, what we have got( or they have got ) are copies. edited and re-written. but we do have the dead sea scrolls. and the ones found Nag hammadi texts and they have the man of galilee as a mortal man that was a teacher of the word. (truth) these copies of course never made it in the Roman`s Book of Bable.
There is a book of Enoch. this seems very interesting. and of course the church rejected this. ok let me ask you something here, all these that came, preached ,like Krishna, Osiris, Horus, Buddah, Jesus,ect... what did these all have in common? as far as what they taught? They all preached immortality! like "you will not surley die" sound familiar?

Moses story was based on myth.
The moses tale was originally that of an Egyptian hero, RaHarakhti, the re-born sun-god of Canopus, whose life story was copied by biblical scholars. The same story was told of the sun hero fathered by Apollo on the virgin Creusa; of Sargon, King of Akkad in 2242 B.C among many other baby heros set adrift in rush baskets. it was a common theme.
His Miracle of drawing water from a rock was first preformed by mother Rhea after she gave birth to Zeus, and by Atalanta with the help of Artemis. His miracle of drying up the waters to travel over dry shrod was earlier preformed by Isis , or hator on her way to Byblos.

First, let me say a hearty and sincere thank you for all the hard work and scholarship poured out in this thread! It has taken me a while to read it all and I've been checking the references - well, mostly cataloging them for later study. I truly appreciate what I've added to my collection of "must read" info even though it may take me a few years to get through it all.

I am somewhat troubled by anybody who would try to discourage intellectual and historical discussions by claiming that such represents an attack on their beliefs when none was presented. The newly popularized "You hate _____(fill in the blank), don't you?!" really has no place whatsoever in this kind of discussion. Nor should any person's belief system or religious affiliation have any bearing on their citations and interpretations of historical events (though, I know that this is probably impossible, it is still a worthy goal of scholarship).

However, there seems to be as much or more evidence presented by scholars as to a kind of conspiracy to frabicate a divine Jesus and to perpetuate that story where it seems most likely that none ever existed in the form that the masses are taught. My point is that simply because you convince 99% of the world's population to believe a certain version of history or story, does not make it accurate. Historical accuracy and opinion polling have about as much in common as architecture and ballet.

Anyway, thank you all, once again! Even those who challenge without any research or scholarship have contributed by prompting the true scholars to include additional information.

I am somewhat troubled by anybody who would try to discourage intellectual and historical discussions by claiming that such represents an attack on their beliefs when none was presented. The newly popularized "You hate _____(fill in the blank), don't you?!" really has no place whatsoever in this kind of discussion.

Unfortunately Al I continue to read and hear this not only throughout these threads, but also editorial pages, letters to the editors, etc.

I believe this has become the new "mantra". Such as trying to keep religion out of the government, etc. That is now being attacked as being "anti-christian" when any true and free thinking individual should know that is not the purpose of such.

However, as I stated above once the mantra is continually repeated then it becomes a "fact". I am a lover of GOD. However, far too often I hear a certain wing of Christianity attack me for trying to keep my spiritual beliefs private and out from under the goverment's nose.

Ok i have a ?.. This has for sometime been eating at me. I have study alot of this subject for 4 yrs now. I feel sometimes i am going in circles. It seems to me that Jesus that is portrayed in the bible was the serpent in the Garden. not only him but others that came before him. they all teach immortality. ( krishna, buddah, horus, ect ect) they all seemed to of taught that if you believe then you will not surely die. Now this is what i am trying to figuare out, is the Lord God in the Garden the one that wanted to keep man and woman in ignorance? so they would be in his control or is the serpent the bad one. I`m starting to think the oppisite is true of the bible. when Adam and woman partook of this tree, why was it so bad to learn right from wrong? were they like the animals before? naked and then a shinning one came along and told them that. ( brought them into the knowleadge of truth?) i know this sounds wild but think about it, why was it so wrong for adam and woman to learn.
And if you look back in history it seems that there was always people that were kept from learning. Like the slaves. am i going way off the line with this or do you think there could be some truth to this.