Public vs Charter and Private Schools

I had to finally make this thread because too many people think private and charter schools are on the same level-playing field as public schools. I'm a product of both systems, having attended both private and public schools while growing up. I've received my teaching certification, education and degrees from public College Universities and Trade Schools. I have 12 years’ experience working in industry in the field of which I taught Mechanical Drafting and Computer-Aided Drafting. I have taught in the public school system for 22 years and have sisters who also taught in both the private and public school systems. So I feel I've had enough experience to truthfully evaluate both the public and private systems. So for those of you who never experienced both the public and private systems...THEY'RE NOT THE SAME!

We now have a Department of Education secretary who has no teaching or education experience. Just like our local school boards which consists mostly of people who don't have any background in education or teaching experience in the classroom. These same school board members and state representatives who make decisions about public education never spend the time nor walk through these schools and witness the dilapidated condition of inner-city public schools. They fail to understand and observe what their ignorant political education reforms have created. They have no idea what teachers in inner-city public schools are up against in the classroom or what works in the classroom setting and what doesn't. Hmmm, I wonder why our public schools are in such a mess.

Public schools have an open door enrollment, they have to accept everybody! Private schools don't, and they can easily expel a disruptive or low achieving student the public school system must readily accept. The private school classroom environment is much more conducive to learning when you have a classroom of students who come from middle to upper-class families who discipline their kids and stress the importance of education. Part of that success is due to the fact student discipline is much more acceptable in these private schools. The learning environment of most inner-city public schools are not conducive to learning. They have classroom settings that includes many more learning support students and juvenile delinquents than that of private schools. The motivated and well-behaved students who are willing to learn get lost in the shuffle.

Private school athletic programs also actively recruit outstanding player from public school systems and offer them scholarships to attend their private schools. The result being, most private schools athletic programs are usually stacked with talent and fair consistently much better in competition than public school athletic programs. Public schools don't have the same incentive to attract outstanding athletes from public schools. These private schools also get much monetary support from their alumni.

Vouchers and charter schools take money out of public school district budgets that has already been allocated to the school by the state. It's why many inner-city public schools are going through major financial hardships. In addition, Charter Schools are not bound by the same statutes that public schools are bound by. "No Child Left Behind" unfairly pulled money away from inner-city schools which had a much larger percentage of learning support students and a student body that was composed of many juvenile delinquents. Of course there would be a drag on achievement scores in that type of setting! So a lack of funding affected many inner-city schools. To help improve achievement, so city schools didn't lose funding, they eliminated life skill classes and made student focus more on state testing. It's easy to recognize just driving by an inner-city school, the poor conditions of inner-city public school buildings and their athletic facilities. The distribution of state funding is simply unfair. It surely doesn't give students any sense of pride in their school when they see what county public and private school facilities look like.

Many charter schools fail after just a few years and do no better or worse than many public schools. The only charter schools that do well are those who only accept students who meet a particular GPA minimum. It's just like owning a business, if you have a great product your business will be successful, if you have a failed product, your business will fail.
These successful charter schools are set-up to be successful not because they have better teachers, it's because they're working with students who are motivated to learn! In fact some of these very same teachers who taught in a failing public school were teaching in these very successful charter schools. It's the caliber of the student that makes them successful! This surely doesn't put selective charter schools on equal footing as public schools.

Comparing public schools to private schools is like comparing apples to oranges. Charter schools don't address the disciplinary problems and large proportion of learning support and disruptive students enrolled in inner-city public schools. To improve achievement, you must have an environment conducive to learning. Pulling out kids from public school systems so they can go to a charter school doesn't address a student's lack of motivation to learn. To be honest, many parents would be alarmed if they knew their kids safe private and charter schools would have to accept a population of inner-city public school students.

Putting someone in charge of fixing the public education who had no education experience in the public classroom or system, is a recipe for disaster. If a company wants to find out what's causing a problem on the production floor, they go to their workers and supervisors who are on the front line. They ask them their perspective of the problem and what's the best solution to remedy the situation. There's no difference when it comes to education. Except teachers are not working with inanimate objects, but a human being who has a whole lot of variables and baggage that can affect his or her success.

For those of you who want to blame teachers for this public school system mess, they're just following the ridiculous "political" and "new teaching reforms" that have gotten in the way from teaching kids the basics and life skills they need. Evaluating a student based on their individual strengths and not using a "state sanctioned test" is a much better way to identify a student’s potential for success. I had students who were terrible at taking tests, but could outperform many students in my CAD lab when it came to their technical drawing skills. Sure, students should meet minimum requirements, but their achievements shouldn't be evaluated solely on a state test. How many people have we all known in high school that seemed below average or average who are now very successful in life?

The United States no longer values education nor its teachers. We value celebrities and athletes much more than occupations that directly impact our country's economy, innovation and strength. Without an educated work force, we would become a 3rd world country. Without teachers, we all would be literally incompetent. How many of us can remember a particular teacher who gave us the interests, skills and support to pursue our career.

a reply to: WeRpeons

My youngest son is home schooled through South Carolina Virtual Charter School. I'm his Learning Coach.

We've used this system for 5th, 6th and now 8th grade. He excels under this system. He wanted to go back to a traditional public school for 7th grade, and it was a disaster. He spent more time trying to avoid fights and bullies than he could dedicate to his education.

Contact with his teachers was horrible (not blaming them, just the system), and so many school policies made me see his middle school more like a prison, than a school.

He has actual teachers with the virtual school who he meets every day online, actually talking with them. Classes are small and teachers are able to help the kids a lot more. I'm also able to communicate with them much easier than I ever had with my 5 other kids that went through traditional public schools.

The other thing it provides: one on one learning. I'm not limited by time or class size. I also know my son quite well, so I can tell if he is understanding something or not easier than any teacher (again, not their fault, he's my son, not theirs, and it would be unfair to hold that on them), so I'm able to teach him things in ways, and without time limits that help him tremendously.

Also: he's here at home. He's safe. He doesn't have to put up with groups of kids who think it's more fun to go around starting fights than to actually attend class. He gets and actual hour for lunch, and he gets a very good lunch to eat. I can answer any question he has immediately.

Best part: The state of South Carolina considers SCVCS as an actual public school and acredits it as such.

Of course not everyone can do this, and it's almost impossible to do if both parents are working. Still, it's something that we are grateful to have.

It seems you give a lot of reason why the system has gone downhill over the past bunch of years, but was the education system not under the control of people who as you say have experience in the field? Now someone from the outside that may give the system a fresh perspective comes along and that is the wrong answer?

Yes I have heard her ramblings of charter schools and I agree with you completely that they are hot garbage and make the system and even more unlevel playing field for those in 'less fortunate' communities, John Oliver did a fantastic piece on them late last year. But the downfall of the education system started long before charter schools. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this plays out and hope DeVos can do some good.

a reply to: CalibratedZeus

Now someone from the outside that may give the system a fresh perspective comes along and that is the wrong answer?

People keep using this as though it makes sense or is logical. It is not. This reasoning has no basis is fact or reality. It is literal non-sense.

I know nothing about being a surgeon, but it doesn't look that hard. I'm a total outsider. I've seen House. Make me the head of Johns Hopkins tomorrow and I bet cancer will be cured in a week. Does that make any sense?

Being an "outsider" doesn't mean you have some secret insight into how to make things better. It means you don't even know where to begin.

There is nothing wrong with public schools.
The problem is the foolish idea that all kids are the same and should be treated the same.

Autistic kids should not be in regular class rooms disrupting the class.
Problem children should be removed from regular classes.
Some kids will never be good students and trying to make them good students ridiculous.

Private schools do better because they can refuse students.

You state that one of the issues with public schools is that they have an open door policy. This is primarily the biggest problem with inner city schools and why they perform so poorly!

Public schools are just a reflection of the communities they serve. If most of the parents are high achieving then the schools will be high achieving. The school system doesn't create smart kids. Smart kids create good schools. Every parent knows this and why they seek to move to areas with other families that have shared values. The public school systems reflect this fact.

In areas with poor schools, the schools perform badly because by in large the kids they serve come from broken homes. The schools are nothing more than glorified day care and juvie detention centers. You could build a $50 million school with all the bells and whistles in the worst ghettos in America. It wouldn't matter because the problems these kids face have nothing to do with the schools but their family and social environment.

While I support public schools, my problem is government bureaucracy telling a parent who wants the best for their child that their kid has to stay in a poorly performing public school.

I benefited from a busing program which allowed my parents to send me to a high performing school because my local public high school was a ghettothe shell hole.

Until public schools are allowed to systematically exclude students who are trouble makers, public schools in poorer areas will never be able to compete against middle and upper income public schools.

a reply to: WeRpeons

Thanks for the thread

Putting someone in charge of fixing the public education who had no education experience in the public classroom or system, is a recipe for disaster.

A education thread would be incomplete without putting John Taylor Gatto into the mix .So what would Mr. Gatto say about your statement ? I think he might disagree but not for the reasons you might think . Here is a short vid that talks about it . I suggest all of his material because its broad and deep ...

The issue I have with privatization/charter is that it isn't really even about the kids or the future of our country, it's about money and control. DeVos will be to Education what her brother was to the MIC...covert agendas and huge profits. If select schools or school systems pursue this as an option, voted on locally, that's one thing. But as a top down push from DC, hell no.

a reply to: WeRpeons

As a teacher maybe you can answer this but what the hell was wrong with the system we had previously that put men in the Moon and helped create all the technology we have today?

Perhaps having these so called qualified candidates that gave us the system we have today is not what we need. Perhaps we need somebody that actually just cares to make a difference versus special interets?

I'm not saying that she is that person but certainly qualifications have NOT been helping either.

a reply to: interupt42

Agree . Why chose from a basket that has its own type of indoctrination . They learn to get along you must go along in most cases . Compartmentalizing ,and then putting minds capable of handling the mental work into positions that may not even be their personal calling . Plus some of these people are stuck in their own box and have too much baggage to look outside of their field ,even to a simple level of other crafts . Imagine someone with a PHD broken down on the side of the road that can't change a simple fuse in his car ...true story ...

America is going to be a shell by the time this administration is tossed out on its ear. We can toss out the old Public School models right along with them. Keep the system, fix the system.

Maybe Trump and team will use the same strategy to fix the healthcare system. They can replace doctors with fast-food workers to get an outside perspective.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Today's public school environment is nothing like when I was growing up. Students at least had respect for their teachers, and there were serious consequences for their bad behavior. Parents stood on the side of the teacher when their child disrupted class or refused to complete their class assignments. Now teachers hear, "my kid says you don't like him, or you're picking on them." We'll if your son or daughter is constantly being told to get on task, there's a reason why he's always being reprimanded. I can't begin to tell you how many fights I had to personally break-up during the years I taught. Believe it or not, a majority of them were girls! Talk about being nasty, girls were out for blood and they wouldn't stop unless another teacher would step in to help control the other party. Boys on the other hand usually would back off. We had many teachers finding themselves in physical therapy due to their backs going out just because they broke up a fight. There's a reason why inner-city schools need to have police security.

My wife's a learning support teacher and is loved by many of her students. Those who don't even have her for a teacher love her! I'm not saying this because she's my wife, but she really has a huge heart. She came home yesterday with a splitting migraine and was visibly upset. I asked her what gave her such a bad migraine, she responded that one of her students (who is by the way now 20 years-old) said "he hated her and wish she would get sick and die!" Her other students defended her, but because she is such a caring person she took it personally! I was a strict teacher, and most male teachers wouldn't take a comment like this to heart. Students direct the "F-word" at teachers so often, it's become an expectation when you tell a student to get on task! If you send them to the office, they get a slap on the wrist and than sent back to the classroom 15 minutes late. Inner-city schools have really become unmanageable because there's no serious consequences for disruptive and bad behavior! The number of students who are connected with gangs or are totally apathetic to learning is depressing to say the least.

Here's what I found really sad. I also have an advertising background, so I used my marketing skills to make my class fun. I had all my class terminology downloaded into a Jeopardy game where students had their own buzzers and questions were projected onto a white board. They even had their own electronic score boards mounted in the front of my lab! I would award 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners school t-shirts and other school related items. My lab produced most of these products for the school store. So I would set some items aside and use some of my own money to purchase small gift items to help motivate my students to learn the material. Believe it or not, a quarter of the class would just put their head down and not participate! I also put together hilarious power points to teen music to help teach the basic fundamentals in a format that wouldn't be boring and be much more acceptable to the students! I also incorporated classroom Nerf basketball games using their class terminology. I had them apply their technical drawing and design skills by having them use their own designs to build balsa wood bridges and buildings. In addition, they all had their own individual computer and the ability to play engineering design games.

So the crap I hear from people who say, "oh it's because you don't motivate your students that's why public schools are the way they are", is total BS.. I wasn't the only teacher in my public school that found new and unique ways to present material. Learning can't always be fun, and it takes the student who is motivated to learn to become successful.

I totally understand why you would pull your son out from public school. Kids can be mean, especially when their coming from abusive homes, and from homes where the parents are just as bad as their kids. Many parents don't want their children influenced by street gangs, thugs and apathetic students.

Unfortunately, the public school system is really a mess, and I really blame politicians for ignoring the needs of public schools. The federal government needs to get out of education altogether and give it back to the state and local governments. They have a better pulse on what type of education their communities need. Consequences for disruptive and poor behavior also needs to be addressed.

a reply to: CalibratedZeus

Local school boards have never been composed primarily of educators or classroom teachers. Would you feel comfortable getting an operation at a hospital where their board was composed primarily of citizens who had no background in the medical field?

There's also a big difference when someone is chosen to manage a system who has never experienced the worst the system has to offer. If you've never personally experienced the shortfalls, how can you be expected to fix the problem? How can a billionaire, who never had to struggle to pay for school loans for their children, and had only experienced the pleasantry of a private school even relate to the majority of parents??? For the 22 years I taught in the public school system, not once did we ever have our school board members, let alone state officials, meet with teachers, observe the schools unannounced, to find out first hand what was needed to improve the system.

a reply to: WeRpeons

I absolutely agree.

My first child was born in 1985. She'll be 32 later this year, has 2 of her own with a third on the way. When she and her sister and brother (my 3 oldest) were attending public school, it's still hadn't changed too much, but it was changing.

Mostly what I found that was changing though was in response to the parents. That is where the big change was; Parents.

Parents in today's world seem to want to treat school like the dry cleaners: They drop the kids off and expect it all to be done by the school.

What most parents seem to have forgotten is: You have to be just as involved in your kids education as any other part of their upbringing, and that means more than just asking: Did you get your homework done?

Now, to be truthful, my own parents didn't exactly set up shop and try to teach me themselves, except life lessons: My mom decided there was no way in hell her son was going to not know how to cook and my dad wanted to make sure that if I ever owned a car, I'd know how to work on it.
When it came to actual school work, most times they were clueless (New Math was hard for them, hehehe), but they always asked if I needed things, needed help, and supported any school activities I was involved in.

Of course I attended most of my schooling over seas in DoD schools since I was a military brat.

Unfortunately not a lot of parents do this anymore. They seem to think that school is just some service that is provided and if their child is doing poorly it must be the schools fault.

Now sometimes there are problems: Common Core Math. I still do not understand what the hell they were thinking. As a engineer, I'm here to tell you it's the most ass backwards way of teaching someone something.

In fact, my son was struggling with his math until I took the common core away, ripped it up and started teaching him math myself, the way I learned it. Ever since I started doing that, he makes A's in math now.

Is that the teacher's fault? No, I don't think it is. If the school system requires them to teach it that way, then it's the school and school districts fault. I won't blame a teacher for that.

In any case, I've always felt that if parents could dedicate more of their attention to their kids education, they'd be doing better in school.

Of course then when I was a kid, the cost of living wasn't so high that both parents had to work just to put food on the table and the lights on. Parents in a lot of cases were able to have the time.

a reply to: Bluntone22

The problem is the foolish idea that all kids are the same and should be treated the same.

Agree. It's also a disservice for those students who want to learn and who can learn at a quicker pace. On the flip side, it's also a disservice for those students who need the additional attention and a slower pace of learning. Parents of learning support students think's it's better to push them into regular classes. In reality, these kids are not getting the needed special attention they deserve. As for the disruptive and out of control kids, they need to be in their own school environment with strict guidelines and serious consequences for poor behavior. If they want back into the normal school environment, they need to demonstrate a change in their behavior and attitude toward learning.

a reply to: WeRpeons

Your comparison between Public and Private education reminds me of the difference in quality of treatment received at VA Hospitals vs Private Hospitals. I've been to both.. and they too, are like Night and Day.

This new education secretary, BETSY DEVOS, is feared by those who work in the public school systems. WHY? The private and public systems are separate. What's wrong with people choosing which one they want to attend..and can afford to attend? Sometimes I go to a Veterans Administration doctor and sometimes I go to a Private doctor. CHOICE IS GOOD.

a reply to: Edumakated

In areas with poor schools, the schools perform badly because by in large the kids they serve come from broken homes. The schools are nothing more than glorified day care and juvie detention centers. You could build a $50 million school with all the bells and whistles in the worst ghettos in America. It wouldn't matter because the problems these kids face have nothing to do with the schools but their family and social environment.

There used to be a school of envy around where I live, it was a suburb, had all the bells and whistles. They thought it would be a great idea for inner city kids to be able to apply there, it wasn't too far.
The students became much worse, and then good parents pull their kids and move, which causes a perpetual cycle, replacing a high achieving student body with a low one. The super nice school made no difference.


Charter schools can do one good thing if they use a GPA minimum. Separate the kids who will succeed from those who refuse to.
The answer to solving inner city public schools is some very hard line discipline and rules that would never fly in today's political environment. For now we should try to separate the children who want to do well.

Most white school suburban and rural districts do not need to be touched, white scores match their european counterparts.

a reply to: Edumakated

I totally agree. Many people think private schools have so much better teachers or their curriculums are so much better. In actuality, the main reason achievement is so high is because they have selective enrollment. We have a public charter school in our city which is managed by our city public school district. It's ranked in the top 5 schools in our state. Most students who attend this school are high performing inner-city kids. It does so well, we have kids in the county that pay to attend this school. All the teachers who teach at this school are inner-city public school teachers who transferred into this school to teach. The students are all motivated and respectful, and you can imagine the stress is minimum compared to the stress on teachers in inner-city public schools.

The only problem is this school sucked all the motivated students out of our existing secondary schools. These schools don't have the high achieving peer role models that could help influence and benefit under achievers.

a reply to: carewemust

Sometimes good motivated students come from families who can't afford to attend these private schools or charters. We also have to address improving public schools for those students who are just average achievers. There's nothing wrong with being average. I was amazed how many of these average students I knew in high school became very successful. Maturity has a tendency to open your eyes to the importance of education. We really have to remove the apathetic, thug and gang member mentality out of our inner-city public schools.