Penalty for ABORTION.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

yup

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Please I ask you to use 1John 1:9 (citing your known sins to our Father in the privacy of your soul) before reading this, as I did the same before typing it out.

I don't think it is a coincidence I came across the thread.

Experiences can be very misleading, especially the ones that you interpret as conviction of the Holy Spirit. I know, because I have had them myself. They are delusions. The point is to grow out of them with 1John 1:9, study/application of scriptures, and prayer. Pray is especially important, because we need to be asking God to point out our personal fallacies. If I seem short or impatient with you, it probably because I am, and I apologize. I do have a higher respect for you, and you are really the only Christian on ATS who actually challenged me with scripture.

Maybe the Lord did direct you to this thread, but don't assume that you came here because you're right, and I won't assume that we are debating this because I am right either.

You can sit here and say you think its clear, but its obviously not as I've given you quite a few scholars that disagree with your position on the text both modern and ancient. There are many many scholars who draw that parallel between the leaping and the filling of John with the Spirit. My point was that there is a valid pro-life interpretation of that text, and there is also an argument to be made that it is more likely. We will go back to my argument if you like which is based on just a couple passages with a little bit of logic.

Scholars are humans too, and they tend to become herd-bound. Why do you think we have so many isms today? Preterism, Dispensationalism, Futurism, Covenant Theology, Replacement Theology, Apostolic Succession....every one of those ideas spearheaded by a 'scholar'.

Remember the Parable of the Ten Virgins? Fifty percent of them had oil, the other 50% didn't have enough. That tells me that the current body of believers are divided into two classes: 50% wise, and 50% full of crap. From my interactions with you, I would associate you with the wise crowd, but there is a lot of propaganda floating around from the 50% of idiot Christians who refuse to use 1John 1:9. So we all need to be careful what information we take in, and how our souls metabolize it. There is much more that we can discuss on other topics that very few people know about, but I am not read to disclose it, and I don't think others are ready to receive it. What I can tell you is that a Second Reformation is coming, but first there will be a total politicization of a bastardized version of the Bible within the government, and our generation will have to live through it. Pro-life will become one of the key dividing issues, but there will be other issues as well.

I can't tell you what's right or wrong. Only the Holy Spirit can guide you, and only you can accept it or reject it. What I can tell you is that if you do not use 1John 1:9 (citing your known sins to the Father in the privacy of your soul) on a regular basis (like breathing), you will be joining the 50% apostates. The same goes for me.

That doesn't mean she murdered her baby that means God took her baby for cheating and refusing to confess. So I get that you think it would be murder if she chose to be judged by God knowing she was guilty, but I just don't agree.

This is where I fail to understand your thought process. If I committed a sin and God told me to confess it or my friend dies, wouldn't I be responsible for my friend's death? I say absolutely yes! I can't help you with that one. You'll have to sort that out with God. I still say there is no soul in the womb.

Is something itself?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,"

What did God form, and where did he form it?

God formed Jeremiah's body in the womb. We know it was his body and not his soul, because the author used a form of YATZAR (יָצַר), which is used when God formed Adam's body in Genesis 2:7. We know that its not the soul being formed, because God does not form souls, He formats them after his own shadow image. We can see this in Genesis 1:26. The word NA'ASHEH (נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה) is used to indicate that God created mans soul in His own shadow image, BETSALMENU (בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ).

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ

A born again man is trichodomous, having body, soul, and spirit. The soul is the personality of a man, but the body is also an extension of him, so I am not surprised that God identifies Jeremiah's fetus as Jeremiah, but it does not mean it contained a soul. It was a preparatory measure needed for Jeremiah's soul imputation at birth.

"you knitted me together in my mother's womb."

What did god knit or weaver together, and where did he do it?

Again, the womb is where God knits the flesh, but it takes 9 months to complete. So why would God place a soul in an incomplete body???? He didn't put Adam's soul in a lump of clay as He formed it. First He crafted Adam's body, then He imputed the soul after the body was complete.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Ah, a few weeks ago... and also not a father I presume.

A recent convert of a chosen ideology always screams the loudest... hey, look at what I can do! I have seen a pool of aborted fotus still writhing on the rendering floor, "picked punks" or very late term children in large jars of fluid; in fact that is one of my earliest memories seeing children 3 times smaller than myself in large jars.

Being a father it isn't something I would choose, but then again not my choice as it is not my body, not my wife and if it was still her choice not mine... my choices would be consentual intercourse, and keeping her in my heart despite that choice.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: daryllyn

It is not up to you to decide where moral lines are drawn for others. I wouldn't choose an abortion personally, if my methods of prevention fail, I guess I would be raising another child, but that's me. I cannot impose my will on others, because, they've crossed a moral line I've drawn in the sand for myself.

Sorry, but morality is not subjective. We all have a duty to our fellow man to protect their life if it is within our power. The statement murder is wrong is not a statement about my preference, but rather a truth claim about reality. So it cannot be the case that murder is wrong and murder is not wrong.

I guess we should let all these murders out of prison. I mean who are we to impose our moral beliefs that they shouldn't kill on them.....

Your arguments do nothing do justify your position they are actually pretty baseless.

Alright then, based on that premise, that morality is not subjective and more specifically, that life begins at conception and therefore abortion is murder, do you or do you not feel that I should be executed or imprisoned, in accordance to the law for murder because I had an abortion at 15 years old? This is a question that requires a simple yes or no answer. Anything else is avoidant behavior and frankly cowardly. Yes or No.

If you feel it necessary to support your yes or no feel free to do so, but do it after the initial response. I personally doubt that you have the courage or fortitude to follow through completely with your moral stance.

a reply to: redhorse

do you or do you not feel that I should be executed or imprisoned, in accordance to the law for murder because I had an abortion at 15 years old?

Well here I'll answer what I see as two questions: Do I think you chose to allow someone to murder your child? Yes. Do I think you should be held accountable in accordance to the law? Yes, but what do I think "in accordance" with the law means?

i feel that the courts would have no choice but to pardon those for their crimes if the abortion when it was legal to do so, as the ruling of the courts is a major reason the public doesn't consider it murder.

As if you had known at 15 that the law considered it murder I assume you would have reconsidered your position to have an abortion.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I didn't ask two questions. I asked one. Please answer it. You haven't yet.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Double post

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So are you going to be taking care of any baby's which will eventually turn to kids? Believe it or not, there are people out there and women who may not want that kid, even if they got pregnant, nor can they afford it or any number of other reasons. Oh for who knows what reasons. But I can think of at least 100 off the top of my head, and I don't even bother thinking on such things.

Ever heard of putting up or shutting up. So unless your personally going to be involved and taking care of said kids, should you not shut the funk up and worry about your own? How do you know every single persons situation here? Or are you omnipotent here? Or are you just clueless and never been in a situation were all sides are bad sides? Me thinks the latter. And what the hell does what some people wrote down in a book some centuries ago have to do with anything today?

To many preachy cabbage patch men and bored housewife's it seems to me, everybody has an opinion on everybody else "potential" baby's, and there baby mamas. I read what you wrote in the OP, seems like something a 4 yr old would ponder on. Be glad, I do not usually take the time to bother reading most people obvious clueless opening posts.

Now maybe you should read what you wrote. And instead of pondering on how wise and awesome it is, maybe you should ponder on how down right foolish and silly it all is.

a reply to: redhorse

I did answer your question.

do you or do you not feel that I should be executed or imprisoned, in accordance to the law for murder because I had an abortion at 15 years old?

Yes you and another human murdered your child, no I don't think it would be just to hold you to a 1st degree murder charge because it was legal at the time of the act, and as such you were operating with in the realm of the law. If abortion were against the law, and you had an abortion anyways well then yes I would thing you should be upheld to to such a standard.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Scholars are humans too, and they tend to become herd-bound. Why do you think we have so many isms today? Preterism, Dispensationalism, Futurism, Covenant Theology, Replacement Theology, Apostolic Succession....every one of those ideas spearheaded by a 'scholar'.

Yes scholars are human, but I am not giving you "heard" bound scholars I've given three from the 100's A.D., and two modern scholars, one of which takes your intepretation of ek, but a different interpretation of luke's use of eti. I suppose we will have to just agree to disagree on the majority of this. I can see you are set in your view, and not being rude but your position just isn't convincing to me nor is mine to you. We've went enough rounds on this.

Remember the Parable of the Ten Virgins? Fifty percent of them had oil, the other 50% didn't have enough. That tells me that the current body of believers are divided into two classes: 50% wise, and 50% full of crap.

We interpret this parable vastly different. This is all based on Hebrew wedding customs. It seems the bride has been spirited away by her bridegroom already, so why are you applying this passage to believers today?

Any excuse to control them womenfolk, am I right?
Keep 'em in their place; like Jesus wanted.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I'm pro-choice, man. I'm against penalizing abortion. I do not believe its murder. So what exactly are you ranting about?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Quotes from Margret Sanger, the founder of planned parenthood:

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,” Sanger wrote. —Letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble on Dec., 10, 1939

Sanger called the various methods of population control, including abortion, “defending the unborn against their own disabilities.” —“A Plan for Peace,” Birth Control Review, April 1932, pages 107-108

) People whom Sanger considered unfit, she wrote, should be sent to “farm lands and homesteads” where “they would be taught to work under competent instructors for the period of their entire lives.” —“A Plan for Peace,” Birth Control Review, April 1932, pages 107-108

They are…human weeds,’ ‘reckless breeders,’ ’spawning… human beings who never should have been born.

Organized charity itself is the symptom of a malignant social disease…Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the stocks [of people] that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world, it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant.

Odd to me that you would follow such fruits brother. Her plan is succeeding by the way. Black children today have about as much chance to be aborted as they do to be born.

originally posted by: GeauxHomeYoureDrunk

Most women who make the hard decision to have an abortion punish themselves for the rest of their lives. They don't need the government to do it for them. Years down the road when they look lovingly upon their later children they think back to the child that was never born and what they would then be doing and they grieve. That grief follows them as long as they live. That is worse than any penalty the government could ever put upon them. Christ would show them compassion, so where is ours?

I agree with some, but it is also used as a form of birth control....

If 1 in 3 women will have one or more abortions in their life time and the result was to "punish themselves for the rest of their lives" I would think they would try everything they could to avoid the situation in the first place. If I suggested that one in three persons would willfully kill someone for just being alive in their life time you might suggest that people would not want to do that and would try really hard to avoid a situation where they get the urge to kill if the result was a lifetime of self punishment.

This tends to lead me to believe that most abortions have very little self-reflection in the action and it is just viewed as quick fix in a mistake.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Please don't associate me with organizations like Planned Parenthood. They receive federal funding to push an agenda. I don't advocate or encourage abortion. I simple do not believe in calling doctors and women who choose to engage in such activities murderers. Murderers deserve the death penalty. Its a serious charge to be throwing around so casually.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
You believe all that yet all your expressions in OP was religion which was pretty much against that?

OK! Whatever. I suppose I may have misread some things, but it is also a very common phenomenon were people can hold two contradictory believes in there heads.

But there is nothing more need said, I don't see why there are 9 pages of debating anything. There is nothing even to say on it.

Quote. Nothing more need be said or talked about. But social sites being what they are, opinions a plenty.

I'm pro-choice, man. I'm against penalizing abortion. I do not believe its murder.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest



Shouldn't the question be: "What do you think the penalty needs to be for illegal abortion" ??

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
You believe all that yet all your expressions in OP was religion which was pretty much against that?

OK! Whatever. I suppose I may have misread some things, but it is also a very common phenomenon were people can hold two contradictory believes in there heads.

But there is nothing more need said, I don't see why there are 9 pages of debating anything. There is nothing even to say on it.

Quote. Nothing more need be said or talked about. But social sites being what they are, opinions a plenty.

I'm pro-choice, man. I'm against penalizing abortion. I do not believe its murder.

Or, you could just admit that you completely misunderstood the OP and apologize. Probably would have been shorter to type.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I'm sorry, I thought the abundance of context clues made my possition clear. I'll keep my next OP at a 3rd grade reading level next time. You're the 3rd or 4th person to make that mistake.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Lol kind of obvious you were making a prochoice case. If they didn't catch that they didn't read