Penalty for ABORTION.

Penalty for ABORTION(?)

Think of it this way; if there is a traffic accident and a woman loses the child she carried, the other driver can... and often is, charged with murder.

That the state allows abortion and then applies this approach other events where an unborn is lost, is simply ridiculous, contrary to logic and above all, entirely ludicrous.

Life begins at conception

originally posted by: redoubt

Penalty for ABORTION(?)

Think of it this way; if there is a traffic accident and a woman loses the child she carried, the other driver can... and often is, charged with murder.

That the state allows abortion and then applies this approach other events where an unborn is lost, is simply ridiculous, contrary to logic and above all, entirely ludicrous.

Life begins at conception

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Why should it be illegal if there is no soul in it? You can say it has the potential to be a living, breathing being, but if this is your current stance I see no justification for making it illegal at 22 weeks or even 37 weeks. Am I not understanding your position appropriately? I mean people like to over complicate this issue, when its really not a complicated issue. Either, it is a life and you cannot kill it or it isn't a life and you can do whatever you want to it. Your position, from my understanding, seems to be that lungs making contact with oxygen is crucial for a soul, and therefore crucial for right to life.

Why should someone accept that the phrase "breath of life" is an idiom for the soul, and yet focus so directly on the literal action of breathing of oxygen? I know this may seem like a silly question, but from your view couldn't I keep God from giving a baby a soul by simply not allowing oxygen to enter its lungs after its exited the birth canal ?

If that point is indeed 22 weeks, then abortion past 22 weeks should be illegal, since the fetus is capable of experiencing birth (soul imputation).

Am I really to believe that God's love for a human only extends to the stage of development its lungs are at? Or am I to believe that the fetus is not human? Both just seem outrageous to me.

I don't normally agree with Christians anymore (and which is even funnier, is you all can't even agree with one another).
I will say this though (as a mother of 4)...that LIFE in your womb, whether it's several weeks old, or born, IS A BABY WITH A SOUL.
Believer Priest, do yourself a favor and research modern medicine's views on a fetus in the womb...oh, and stop trying to decide it with"scripture". You'll learn much more if you ignore the views you think you've been shown from the bible.
Trust me...any woman who's been pregnant, KNOWS that that little one growing inside her is a PERSON....waaaaay before it take it's full breath out of the womb.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I believe the Holy Spirit revealed the Word to men, and inspired them document it accurately without overriding their personal writing/poetic styles. Therefore, I view the Word of God as infallible. Auto-writing is probably a sign of demon possession.

Good so we are in agreement there. I don't want to steam roll you. So let me ask this, are we in agreement that Moses in Genesis 1-2 is writing a polemic against the Egyptian creation myths?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

If all Christians agreed with one another I'd be worried it was brainwashing. I may disagree with Priest, and I may even think his moral intuition is a little diluted in this case, but I still consider him a brother in Christ. There is no division between us on that aspect. As you can see our differences come in how we take the original language of the Bible.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

That is a probable conclusion that I happen to agree with. More importantly, do you agree that Genesis 1 & 2 sets the standard pattern of interpretation for the entire Bible?

For example:
Creation, destruction, restoration.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Not sure what you mean to be honest. I mean I don't really see all three of those aspects in Genesis 1 & 2 alone.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The Genesis Gap Theory. Initial creation, destruction at Satan's fall, and restoration in six days. Its the same pattern with man. Initial creation in innocence, fall, and restoration redemption.

Anyways, what point were you trying to make?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

f Adam wasn't alive until being given the breath of life, AFTER the formation of his body....
If Israel is not resurrected until being given the breath of life, AFTER the formation of her body...
If we are BORN AGAIN, not CONCEIVED AGAIN....

Why would God deviate from His specially crafted theme to put a soul in a fetus while in the womb? Show me what the spiritual lesson would be behind 'life at conception'. edit on 10-2-2017 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos

As Khnum creates man on his potter’s wheel, Yahweh-Elohim creates man by forming him from the earth. Both the Egyptian and the Hebrew texts use the phrase “breath of life” to describe the life-giving force that the deity infused into the nostrils of the clay figure. The Egyptian reliefs usually portray two gods involved in the creation of man. One creates the man, and the other puts the breath of life, represented by the ankh, into the nostrils. In the Hebrew tradition, Yahweh-Elohim performs both functions, an implicit polemic against ancient Egyptian mythology. This is the primary reason for the distinction between the forming of the body and the adding of the soul to the body. I simply find "breath of life" to be an idiom based on the lack of scientific knowledge of Moses. I mean we also find verses attributing life to blood:

11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

Again I take this to be the authors writing within their frame of knowledge, just as paul does in the verses about the head covering when he makes a subtle reference to the work of Hippocrates.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Again I take this to be the authors writing within their frame of knowledge, just as paul does in the verses about the head covering when he makes a subtle reference to the work of Hippocrates.

You can argue that Moses was limited by his frame of knowledge, but the Lord Himself uses very similar wording in Ezekiel 37.

5“Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6‘I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’”
7So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’”

As with Adam, so it will be when Israel is resurrected at our Lord's return.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Oh btw, I think the spiritual lesson between conception and being born again is that one cannot be born until egg has joined with sperm. One cannot be born again until the Spirit of God indwells within their own. I can see a type of beauty in that symmetry though you may not.

Isn't Ezekiel 37 a vision that would need interpreting? Nothing in the vision depicts a literal breathing of life into something. In fact it seems to simply describe a wind and with that wind the breath of life enters the slain.

The "penalty" is the mother having to cope with the decision for the rest of her life.

The beauty of pro-choice is that you have the right to choose to carry to delivery, and no one is forced to have an abortion if they don't want one.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The sperm entering the egg is the gospel entering the soul of a person. Its the same as the seed being sown in the soil. Some soil is welcoming, some soil is hostile. I forgot where that parable is located in the Gospels.

The word for spirit is ruahh or pneuma. Both carry the connotation of breath or wind, so its not until one is born again that the spirit enters.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Text What do you think should be the penalty for abortion???

I am quite surprised to read your opinions on abortion are not complete. Have you considered what science plainly shows us? As of 2016 science shows us that life begins at conception.

As the sperm of conception touches the egg of conception there is an instant spark of life in both animal and human conception. This has been observed and photographed and the model proven many times over. Biology cites this now as a fact. Whether you want to believe that this is not a living soul is your prerogative but this much is proven and that is without the act of conception one can not produce a soul. Even the Holy Spirit shows us that Mary conceived in order to produce.
www.telegraph.co.uk...

If life begins at conception and the life is terminated after conception, then the life is killed. Is not that a fact? In plain language that is what we call abortion. Now with all facts laid bare let me ask you another question.

Science shows us that the Unborn can feel pain as early as 8 weeks from conception. Also the unborn can have surgeries while still in the womb and are given anesthesia in many cases. Can you tell me that the unborn can feel pain without being considered a viable entity? I truly believe you should reconsider what you don't want to hear.

a reply to: Seede

You're familiar with Judaism. What is the traditional Jewish perspective?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Texta reply to: Seede You're familiar with Judaism. What is the traditional Jewish perspective?

Depends upon which Judaic authority you listen to and whether it is biblical or rabbinical. Today's Jewish abortions are predetermined on a case by case basis and very complex in determining whether it is necessary or not necessary. Nevertheless it is not a political blanket law as is regarded here in the USA. The life of a child in the womb was very precious to the first century Nazarene Christians and was taught by James as the doctrine of Jesus. Torah does not set a death penalty for abortion and traditional rabbinical Judaic law does not sanction abortion on demand as it does in this country. That is not to say that abortion is penalized but only that it is not sanctioned by The Most High EL.

Regardless of how one looks at abortion there are still biological facts that cannot be ignored. Biologically, the moment of conception is procreation. That is a fact and a proven fact which could not be shown till last year. Regardless of what Moses wrote in Torah, it could not be understood as we now see it. Today we see the child as a a human with a beating heart. Not as Adam was as a lifeless clod who had the spirit of life breathed into him. Adam was not procreated nor was Adam a fetus. The fetus of procreation takes the spark of life from the mother while Adam had no mother to give him that life.

a reply to: Seede

So based on biblical authority, would you say that abortion is murder, as so many Christians claim it to be?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

The sperm entering the egg is the gospel entering the soul of a person. Its the same as the seed being sown in the soil. Some soil is welcoming, some soil is hostile. I forgot where that parable is located in the Gospels. The word for spirit is ruahh or pneuma. Both carry the connotation of breath or wind, so its not until one is born again that the spirit enters.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

The moment of belief is likened to the moment of conception to me. Both are those single moments in which you can life has started.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The moment you believe is the moment of life. That is the objective interpretation.
The subjective interpretation would be to assume that life begins at conception or birth, as we have both debated this. Apparently the answer is not as obvious as we both believe it to be.

I still contend that hearing the gospel is conception, while believing the gospel brings the breath of eternal life (indwelling of the Holy Spirit/pneuma).



Just read Luje 8. The seed on the road is when the Word enters the heart (conception), but satan takes the Word away, so no salvation (no birth, no life).

The rest of the seeds sprouted, indicating birth/salvation, but only one bore fruit (sanctification) while the rest went apostate (still saved)