Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

a reply to: andy06shake


If nature was not in balance....


Further reading...

blog.uvm.edu...

I completely agree with you.
People simply dont control the variables that make them act the way they do.
It's so obvious to me.
In a deeper view no one is guilty of acting as he acts, of having the will and tastes that he has, no one knows why they are as they are. But rules and penalties are needed to ensure order and peace.
Freedom to act is so conditioned, it is ridiculous to think that there is free will.

This is a big play, everyone is playing their characters, living their role, people act according to their circumstances genetic culture personal history personal traits etc. In the same situation the aggressive character will hurt and attack but the gentle one will hug and forgive. The snake will act as a snake and the dolphin will act as a dolphin.
Every being is playing by his personal program.

a reply to: Manula

Attachment brings a habit... a certain taste or proclivity towards whatever it is that was grasped. In such a manner, one conviences themselves they are helpless to their cravings or desires. But they are simply there due to the attachment of them. If one is overly attached to cheeseburgers... non-attachment to cheeseburgers will not make cheeseburgers go away, but a lot of other things equally if not better than cheeseburgers will be missed.

So in turn such a thing as attachment seen as possitive can also become a negative... of course attached thusly one will not see what they are missing out on by limiting experience in such a manner of habit.

Of course there are natural affinities... but making them out of balance, places oneself out of balance. Everyone has their own middle ground and siding one way or the other in judgment of better or worse just tips the scales from ones point of view in a self centric fashion... of course those attached from their own middle in the same manner? Will have an opinion that your scales are out of balance... both unaware that each has their own middle or balance to work out? Then create problems and disturbance in the other, so is there anything wrong with being attached to cheeseburgers? In oneself? Regardless of what others say; time will tell in that experience called: The future.

It arises in it's own time the same as knowledge instead of simply grasping at concepts to feed a hunger in the moment in which it occurs. That timeline is yours no one can force learning wisdom on you... and that is a good thing, others may want to act like they are all knowing well leave them with what know, and in kindness leave others in what they have yet to experience.

Less conflict in doing such a thing... of course forming groups happens when opinions try to force wisdom on someone; on both sides... too many cheeseburgers bad so a group forms to stamp them out, and as soon as that happens? Cheeseburger lovers will form a group to protect them.

Perspective there's always more than one, two, or even oh what is the population now? 7.5 billionish... each opinion and perspective... just as valid as the last when one is not pegged into something so limited as one or two points of view that create conflict... even in groups there will be those saying:Ya'lls argument is dumb. Then hey another opposition: No they have a right to argue so it isn't dumb.

See how that works?

The Wonderful Gift of Free Will: Does God Care?

6. How did God create our brain to work in harmony with free will?

6 To go with the gift of free will, God gave us the ability to think, weigh matters, make decisions, and know right from wrong. (Hebrews 5:14) Thus, free will was to be based on intelligent choice. We were not made like mindless robots having no will of their own. Nor were we created to act out of instinct as were the animals. Instead, our marvelous brain was designed to work in harmony with our freedom of choice.

Hebrews 5:14
14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment* trained to distinguish both right and wrong. [*: Or “their perceptive powers.”]

On the other hand though...

A stupid person takes no pleasure in understanding;
He would rather disclose what is in his heart.

A stupid person gives vent to all his feelings,* [*: Lit., “spirit.”]
But the wise one calmly keeps them in check. (Proverbs 18:2; 29:11)

Because and so that...

The heart of the understanding one acquires knowledge,
And the ear of the wise seeks to find knowledge.

The understanding heart seeks knowledge,
But the mouth of the stupid feeds on* foolishness. [Or “pursues.”] (Proverbs 18:15; 15:14)

See also my signature and text under my name regarding the phrases "feed his mind" and "we are what we eat".

The “understanding heart is one that searches for knowledge”; it is not satisfied with a mere superficial view but seeks to get the full picture. (Pr 15:14) Knowledge must become ‘pleasant to one’s very soul’ if discernment is to safeguard one from perversion and deception.—Pr 2:10, 11; 18:15; see KNOWLEDGE.

Source: Understanding: Insight, Volume 2

Of course, the opposite of what I bolded counts for "the stupid" again as these verses contrast the 2 behavioural patterns.

Proverbs 1:22-27
22 “How long will you inexperienced ones love inexperience?
How long will you ridiculers take pleasure in ridicule?
And how long will you foolish ones hate knowledge?
23 Respond to my reproof.* [Or “Turn back when I reprove.”]
Then I will pour out my spirit for you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I called out, but you kept refusing,
I stretched out my hand, but no one was paying attention,
25 You kept neglecting all my advice
And rejecting my reproof,
26 I also will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when what you dread comes,
27 When what you dread comes like a storm,
And your disaster arrives like a storm wind,
When distress and trouble come upon you.
Ridicule: Insight, Volume 2

The act of belittling or exposing to contempt, derision, or mockery.
...We therefore read in the Bible of persons that mock, deride, sneer, scoff, jeer, laugh at, or make fun of others.
... If such do not accept reproof, they will experience disaster. (Pr 1:22-27)
...Ridiculers often refuse to listen to rebuke (Pr 13:1) and do not love those reproving them. (Pr 9:7, 8; 15:12) Nevertheless, they should be disciplined for the benefit of others. (Pr 9:12; 19:25, 29; 21:11)

12 If you become wise, you are wise to your own advantage,

But if you are a ridiculer, you alone will bear it.

25 Strike the ridiculer, so that the inexperienced one may become shrewd,

And reprove the understanding one, so that he will increase in knowledge.

11 When a ridiculer is punished, the inexperienced become wiser,

And when a wise person receives insight, he gains knowledge.* [Or “he knows what to do.”] (Pr 9:12; 19:25; 21:11)

Enduring ridicule with the proper viewpoint. Jesus Christ knew all along that he would face ridicule and that it would culminate in his being put to death. But he recognized that the reproaches were actually against Jehovah, whom he represented, and this was all the more painful to him, for he ‘always did the things pleasing to his Father’ (Joh 8:29), and he was more concerned with the sanctification of his Father’s name than with anything else. (Mt 6:9) Accordingly, “when he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.” The apostle Peter expresses this point when writing to Christians, particularly to slaves, exhorting them not to let such treatment incite them to retaliate; for Christ is their example, “a model,” Peter says, “for [them] to follow his steps closely.”—1Pe 2:18-23; Ro 12:17-21.
...
Justifiable Ridicule. Ridicule may be deserved and well justified. A person who does not exercise foresight or who neglects good counsel may take a foolish course that makes him the object of ridicule. Jesus gave an example of such a man, who started to build a tower without first counting the cost. (Lu 14:28-30) Jehovah set Israel “as a reproach to [her] neighbors, a derision and jeering to those all around” her, justly so, because of her own waywardness and disobedience to God, even to the point of bringing reproach upon God’s name among the nations. (Ps 44:13; 79:4; 80:6; Eze 22:4, 5; 23:32; 36:4, 21, 22) The prophet Elijah appropriately mocked the priests of Baal for their defiance of Jehovah. (1Ki 18:26, 27) After Sennacherib had taunted and spoken of Jehovah abusively before King Hezekiah and the people of Jerusalem, the tables were turned; ridicule, derision, reproach, and ignominious defeat fell upon this haughty Assyrian king and his army. (2Ki 19:20, 21; Isa 37:21, 22) In a similar manner Moab became an object of ridicule. (Jer 48:25-27, 39) The nations of earth have gone to the extreme in ridiculing God, but Jehovah laughs at them and holds them in derision for their impudent resistance to his universal sovereignty, as they reap the bad fruitage of their course.—Ps 2:2-4; 59:8; Pr 1:26; 3:34.

Ridiculers in “the Last Days.” One feature of the sign marking “the last days” would be “ridiculers [literally, players in sport (of mocking)] with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires [“own desires for ungodly things”; Jude 17, 18] and saying: ‘Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.’” (2Pe 3:3, 4) Obviously, such ones do not heed the advice of Isaiah 28:21, 22, warning of the grave danger of scoffing at Jehovah.

“God Is Not One to Be Mocked.” The apostle Paul warns of the serious danger that attends an attempt to mock God, that is, the danger that comes to one who thinks that the principles of God’s administration can be treated with contempt or can successfully be evaded. He writes to the Galatian Christians: “For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving his own mind. . . . Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap; because he who is sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but he who is sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit.”—Ga 6:3-8.

a reply to: whereislogic

Why bring make believe into this? If it was worth anything all of these problems would have been solved over 2000 years ago.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

My opinion is that the will is not free at all.
And i think it's ridiculous to think differently.
Don't i have the right to an opinion?

a reply to: Manula

If you want to pick the poison of make believe? Be my guest.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Its not a matter of freewill containing worth, but without it, our thoughts may not be self emergent and our actions somewhat predefined, hence our lives contain a measure of predestination.

Essentially without free will we are nothing but puppets with something or some other process working the strings.

Possibly there is a form of group consciousness at play that we have yet to discover hence the problems associated with freewill?

originally posted by: andy06shake
Essentially without free will we are nothing but puppets with something or some other process working the strings.

Kermit was also shocked!

a reply to: Itisnowagain

a reply to: andy06shake

How are actions predefined? They aren't. Actions are not autonomic, breathing, heart beating, removal of waste and blinking are. Thoughts are not even autonomic... they are empty nothings the mind has trained itself to grasp at through conditioning too.

Sit down comfortably and dont move... you can control this, of course you'll notice the mind running wild, the body wanting to seek comfort, the mind running wild trying to force it to seek comfort, hitch that stupid pile of nonsense called thought on one point of focus and hold it there, pull it back every time it wanders... eventually it gives up and stays put, pain it'll go away there's a system for that, the body will release endorphins... after awhile the mind will shut up too and stay that way.

You see anything? The mind will not think anything about it, smell, taste, touch, hear? The same way... but yet all is still there... just nothing to think about, just emptiness and peace. You can direct that focus anywhere and do all of the exact same things you have ever done, as brand new... this is the true state of nonattachment, what is detached? The mind from the nonsense we have attached and perpetuated and continue to perpetuate instead of simply be...

Do I have to be here on this forum? Nope do I have to interact with anyone if I do not want to? Nope. Do I have to think about anything it doesn't even occur so? Obviously not. Guess what? I wouldn't go back to that hell state of mind that people are tourtured with or suffer with for all of everything in the entire world... why? Because my conscious awareness is at peace, there is no suffering left within me at all none zip zero nada it is in balance. I worked damned hard to get there too and others can too, and what does that require? Resolve. To take that freewill to do what with it? Nothing. What happens then? Well, awareness still arises, the eyes are not blind, the hear are not deaf, the nose still smells, the skin still touches it is just not plauged with thoughts or memories about them.

Others? Can't say the same... still see and hear their pain and their suffering. Should I leave them to it since it is self created? Self perpetuated? Or should I be empathetic and say... hey; doesn't have to be that way? Obviously since I give a lot of time on this forum and to others? I chose empathy... and point. Don't have too and at some point I won't at least not here.

Concepts are not reality; no more real than a dream... illusion, delusion, sun is the sun and will still sun no matter what we think about it or make up about in the past, present or future, it will still sun even if we all one day agreed not to even call it sun... some countries don't even call it sun does that change anything about it? Nope. It is what it is and all we do is grasp at it and make it something different and agree to that which we have made it out to be... that's all "knowledge" is and it is infinite... it is entropy itself as the conceptual. Sure we could use that potiential for oh so very very much more... but we drag so very much useless along that does absolutely no good for the future. Due to those attachments passed... if it does something for you? Great, walk it, be it... talking it well it is someone else's pointing until you have walked it, it is dogma until you have equaled it, then what is there to be said about it? Nothing you just live it.

These figures in the past didn't want that status; I don't want any status... I am just here living, and there are many that have walked it. When does vegitarianism need to be talked about or carried? When one is about to eat... otherwise useless until then. So why drag it along saying that's you 24/7 365? Or anything else? Pointless it is waving nonsense around until it is needed to be discussed. A lot of things? No one else's business where consent is involved between two adult parties... doesn't stop people bringing in some concept like it is their business though does it? Sure in idle conversation getting to know someone maybe it makes a difference otherwise? Useless. Put it into action of the being... the eyes can see the doing, the ears don't need to hear where the doing came from. If someone says hey; you know I can appreciate how you carry yourself, how you present yourself, how you act in the world towards others... then it is a good time otherwise? Not you just a represenative and well the doing of it is the best represenative it will EVER have.

Interesting article

free wil studies

a reply to: athousandlives

The ability to act as the situation requires without the mind getting in the way is a great thing; I suppose that equates to moving as it is "fired"? Intent of course takes time perhaps... no intent, step skipped.

originally posted by: Manula
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

My opinion is that the will is not free at all.
And i think it's ridiculous to think differently.
Don't i have the right to an opinion?

You do but when arguing about free will people just use another definition of free will to make it seem as if they can't both be right, that's where all the problems are coming from. In truth, both versions of free will are compatible with one another.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

To have an opinion is great, i respect others opinions and i cherish the fact that they have one.

I guess you could say that the universe made me like that, so i live it.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Sit down comfortably and dont move... you can control this

But you couldn't control making the decision to not move. Even if you choose not to move it's because your brain thinks it's the best choice. Ultimately, there is no free will there. You just do what your brain thinks is the best option moment to moment.

Let me also put it in another way. Are you free to make a decision free from what your brain desires? Obviously not.
Can you control all of the micro-processes which make up the brain? Obviously not.

Having a free will outside of these factors is absolutely ridiculous.

a reply to: Andy1144

My point is simple: in the same situation everyone acts according to what they want to do at the moment and no one can control the variables that determine what they want to do: genetics, culture, background, soul personality and background, past traumas etc).
In the same situation the "bad guy" does a bad thing and the "good guy" does a good thing.
None is to blame for wanting to do bad or good, people just act according to their inner program.
Its all a big play and we are all playing it according to our roles.
Free will is simply an illusion promoted to make people feel guilty and sinful and easier to control.

a reply to: Andy1144

double post

a reply to: Manula

You couldn't have explained it simpler and I couldn't agree more.

It's interesting how misunderstood this simple logic can be where people can talk about it for years and not understand it.