Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Andy1144

Lets just say that to date my assessment as to why we exist, illusion or otherwise, is directly linked to experience.

Exactly, that's what my question was. So you agree then.

So there you can know something for sure can you?

a reply to: Andy1144

well you choose to believe that if you want, me i will choose freewill.

a reply to: andy06shake

Is anything really separate through given that we are apparently all part of an expanding explosion that is our universe?

No nothing is separate - which is why there is no freewill. If there is nothing separate then there can be nothing separately choosing or doing!

There are no 'things' - there is just what is.

a reply to: Andy1144

Depends what you mean by something.

I can surmise that i exist, i think therefore i am.

Definitive proof through, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Answer me this how can you be so sure that you can know anything for sure?

originally posted by: andy06shake
I can surmise that i exist, i think therefore i am.

There is thought and thought assumes a 'thinker' - there is no 'thinker'!!

a reply to: andy06shake

Answer me this how can you be so sure that you can know anything for sure?

I don't think you can, the only thing I can know is that I am aware.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I don't place any stock in the illusion of freewill nether, but that leaves predestination which is also fraught with philosophical issues.

Like i said its an enigma, rapped in a puzzle.

And we don't have all the pieces and probobly never will.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Itisnowagain

I don't place any stock in the illusion of freewill nether, but that leaves predestination which is also fraught with philosophical issues.

What philosophical issues are you speaking of?

a reply to: andy06shake

But predestination is another topic completely. I agree that is something we have yet to figure out and might never will.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Intelligent design, or the implication of such, if indeed our existence is somehow preordained/predefined.

originally posted by: Andy1144Instead of being depressed that our illusions about who you are, are being destroyed we can instead accept this fact and get develop more logical compassion for ourselves and humanity.

Choosing to "develop more logical compassion for ourselves" vs "being depressed that our illusions about who you are" would require free will; which you have argued does not exist.

if we are to be depressed over our illusions about who we are; than so shall it be; correct? There is no choice in the matter.

But the crux of the matter is this: who cares? (not that we can decided to care or not right?) Life will be as it is with out our free will to get in the way; arguing over whether free will exists or not is futile ... but than again I guess have no choice in that matter either.

a reply to: Andy1144

Well unless you have another explanation, that works to explain the diametric opposition of the other two, and also provides a meaningful answer, its kind of all we have to go on.

Like you say we may never know.

a reply to: DanDanDat

If you've read my replies you would know that I mention to different two free wills. The answer to your argument is there.

The reason we argue about whether free will exists or not is the same when an athiest and a christian talk about whether god exists or not.

a reply to: andy06shake

Although we cannot know if the universe is truly deterministic or not, we can know that life is just happening without any entity controlling it free from any cause.

a reply to: Andy1144

Its certainly a possibility.

But then you have things like the Cosmological constant, Phi(Golden Ratio) and Pi rear there heads in nature repeatedly and you have to wonder as to whether or not something somewhat finely tuned our reality.

a reply to: andy06shake

You are thinking about a different type of free will that's the problem. How do any of the things you said make the possibility for free will open? Everything works in cause and effect, even in the quantum world. If this is true, then there is absolutely no free will, free from cause.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

well you choose to believe that if you want, me i will choose freewill.

Some people choose to believe the earth is flat, choose whatever you want.

a reply to: Andy1144

If time through were somehow not linear or open to interpretation cause and effect become somewhat of a paradox. One not necessarily following the other in the conventional sense anyway.

Freewill is more than lightly an illusion but one that seems to be intrinsically hardwired into our make up.

Lets just say that the ability to pose the question makes us somewhat sentient but that does not mean we will ever attain any meaningful answer this side of what we consider oblivion.

a reply to: andy06shake

Either way, to make a conscious choice free from any circumstance is an illusion. If you can make a choice unconsciously, it is no longer free will. Do you agree it is impossible to make a conscious choice free from any physical or quantum (or other) conditioning whatsoever? Even if you could, it still wouldn't make it free from being free.

This is what I'm saying. We cannot make a choice free from what's physically and non physically there. Even if we could it would need something for it to happen.

The perfection of God is that omniscience has a way to not know something, omnipotence has a way to not have influence or control over something and omnipresence has a way to exist even inside of absolute non-existence. All 3 of those involve this Universe and finite life forms. Now you know WHY the Universe exists the way it does.