Do we really have free will? And how do you feel about God after reading this?

a reply to: Artorias

As a southern baptist I wonder if you ever said the Lords Prayer, specifically the part where Jesus asks us to pray "thy will be done" in that prayer
Asking that God returns so He can bring about His will to this world

Your argument has been done to death, plenty of people believe Augustine and Calvin, plenty don't, you need to spend a bit more time studying the words than reading and thinking you know what you are reading

As a southern baptist I am guessing you went to a church that didn't teach you anything

Try Bruxy Cavey on YouTube explaining Calvinism and why your opinion is just that, an opinion, an opinion that has been done to death

a reply to: Artorias

If life and reality is an equation, then there is only variables, no free will.

Everything is more or less scripted, you get a few choices to pick from, that is not free will.

If there is a god, he only started a more or less predetermined game, and just observes.

a reply to: Artorias

What if "God" is everything, the whole universe. Consciousness experiencing itself in different ways. Then your whole point is invalid.

"You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing" Alan Watts

a reply to: Artorias

First off I am not Southern Baptist so what I am going to point out may mean nothing at all but it might give you a out . God is ..God isn't ...God can't ..God wont .God will .God can .I think we play a little loosy goosy at times with our speaking about God . He may or He may not be exactly the way we describe Him .Now going by your what if's ...You went from a authoritative statement about God to not only a speculative one

You say "" if God views the past, present, and future as one collective, then free will is just an illusion to us because we can't see our own future. I might at this point ask what your views are about John Calvins predestination doctrine is but instead let me take you to the true source of knowledge about God and mans will . Turn to 1st Samuel 23 and start reading . We notice that David is asking God questions and God is answering him . We want to focus on this exchange 1Sa 23:10 David said, "LORD God of Israel. Your servant has definitely heard that Saul intends to come to Keilah to destroy the town because of me.
1Sa 23:11 Will the people of Keilah hand me over to him? Will Saul come down just as your servant has heard? LORD God of Israel, please inform your servant." The LORD said, "He will come down."
1Sa 23:12 Then David said, "Will the people of Keilah hand me over to Saul?" The LORD said, "They'll hand you over."
1Sa 23:13 David and his men, about 600 strong, got up and left Keilah. They moved around wherever they could go. Saul was advised that David had escaped from Keilah, so he stopped the campaign. Now in this exchange you can clearly see that God knew a few things that could of happened but didn't .Because David decided on his own free will to leave the city . David didn't ask what he should do when he knew what could happen and probably would if he decided to stay .

This may or may not answer you but it might allow you to think a little different and not put God in a box...peace.

There is a purpose for all of you... it's unfortunate that your main purpose is to accomplish things in life which have an indirect or direct effect on the messiah's life. The messiah sees the symbology and patterns in your world which allows him to communicate with the higher spirit. This is only accomplished by judging the results of your work and recognizing the symbolism he's been taught over the course of his life due to his close relationship with God. You have an influence but there's no possibility of you determining how much because you aren't meant to know. God's wisdom is and will always be beyond your reach and that's the only way it can be. There are too many enemies of God in this world, all men have committed sins so he must be weary of all and trust in himself. This world is dark and increasingly difficult. Too many of you men believe you have control over God and his messiah and view from a position of judgment... you were allowed to experience the joys of life but not allowed to judge others, especially agents of God. But now, since it's been determined that many of you "soft copies" aren't needed in the world ahead, he must determine who should stay and who should progress. There is no salvation for those who don't make the cut. Your sins contributed to his hardships in this life, both personally and those inflicted upon his people which you still haven't figured out. It's not about saving now, it's about determining proper punishment for those that remain. Cheers pilgrims, you're fncked.

a reply to: Artorias

OK, let me explain it this way:

You are a character in a story.... The world events are set, the ending of the story is either you choose to be a child of the light or you do not. That is the goal. You the character have complete free will to do as you please and make your own choices within the story and you can influence, help, and guide the other characters of the story.

In the end, you either choose one or the other. Your life experiences are your own, you choices are your own, your decision is definitely your own.

Which side do you choose?

Okay, I'm back.

God does know all.

The part you left out is that you don't. You don't know what you're going to be doing 5 years from now.

God does, but how does that stop you from doing?

Here is where the irony lies within your thinking:

You can choose to rebel and then claim to yourself that must have been God's will. You can choose to obey and claim that must have been God's will. Either way, you attempt to absolve yourself of the responsibility of what you do.

You question His Word and think this means that He is not all powerful. Does an all powerful being require your permission to exist, or is it the other way around?

You are the variable.

He said, "Have I not told you, that ye are gods?"

He said we are created in His image.

But He also said, "Which one of you, by taking thought, can add one cubit to his stature?"

Your will is limited to your life, but you can't prevent your body from dying.

Your imagination is a lot less limited, but your body resides within God's imagination.

Now, because you don't know, you have choice. God knows what you will choose, but you don't. You're discovering who you are, what you will do. But you are still choosing.

I know my son. If I give him a choice between macaroni and pizza, I know what he will choose. That doesn't mean he didn't choose - it only means that I know and he doesn't until I present the question.

Should he be angry that I knew he would choose his favorite food? That's silly. He got his favorite food, had the choice not to, and enjoyed every bit.

He didn't have the choice to eat sushi because I didn't present it to him. That doesn't prevent him from asking for it to be an option and it doesn't prevent me from saying no. I may know he will ask, but it won't prevent him from considering the question. Should he be angry that I knew he would ask? Or should he be happy that his father knows him so personally?

The variable you were missing is you.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Artorias

Here's the way I see it. The body is not aware of the "souls" agenda for life. The soul can only maneuver within the river, that leads to the ocean which is "god", as well as it can steer its vessel, whether that vessel be a life vest, a raft or a luxury liner.

Like a game of pool, the cue ball has no feel will. The one behind the cue stick does, but that person's will is only as powerful as their mastery of the cue stick and ball.

Well why is it that I'm only good at pool when I'm wasted?

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Artorias I was never taught that God sees past , present , and future as one🤔Did I miss something in catechism class?🤷🏻‍♀️

That's what I was taught. On top of that, if you believe god to be all knowing, god would literally have to know the past present and future. Otherwise god wouldn't be all knowing.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Artorias

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Artorias

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Artorias

What IF God is not actually in charge of this world?

Said being could still possess all of said qualities

Even if God isn't in charge, all of this is still relevant. God would still have created us, knowing our collective life events. You could argue that whoever would be in charge wouldn't know, but god would still know, meaning free will is a fabrication, and who gets to go to heaven or hell is predetermined irregardless.

Perhaps heaven and hell are both myths...

And everyone goes to whatever afterlife occurs?

Anything could be possible. None of us knows what happens when we die. I mainly wrote this post because I want to hear a religious person prove me wrong, as I have yet to hear any sound reasoning against this. For all we know, when we die, something completely unknown and never before perceived could happen.

So... removing said notion of heaven or hell...

Are we not free to live our lives AS we see fit?

If God doesn't exist, then yes. If God does exist, then no.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just a small issue with your good post

He said, "Have I not told you, that ye are gods?"

If you study that psalm you will notice it is a divine council meeting and "God" is calling out the other "gods" and telling them because of the bad choices they were making that they were going to die like "men" .....Which kind of fits this thread because even His heavenly family has free will . Its the only way you can love and be loved .Its a choice .

originally posted by: dude1
How do you get from "God views the past, present, and future as one" to "everything is predetermined" ?

Because, if a being knows what future events will happen, then to that being those events that are unfolding would be predetermined to that being. Other beings that do not have knowledge of absolute future events wouldn't be able to perceive this, thus free will bring an illusion to us lesser beings.

"before we are even created" and during and after , because its not in time.

What is your evidence for this? As far as we know time has always been a constant since the universe started. Either way, it's irrelevant because if you think our point of creation is outside of time, we still eventually come into time, and god would still have his knowledge of our future events.

"no fair chance of getting into heaven" how does that follow from knowing "past, present, and future as one" ?

Again, god knows our future events, that absolutely means at the point of creation god knows what "choices" we make. Meaning he knows if we will be "good" or "bad". Take hitler for example. At the point of God creating hitler, he already knew that hitler would create the holocaust, so he created hitler to commit the holocaust, and by our understanding of religion, hitler would have gone to hell. Meaning god created hitler to cause the holocaust, and then when hitler died, god sent hitler to hell. Hitler never had a chance to go to heaven. This same concept applies to lucifer. God created lucifer knowing he would rebel. Knowing that lucifer rebelling would eventually lead to the original sin of humanity. If you disagree with any of this, then you have to admit that God isn't all knowing.

As far as i know 1 2 and 3 are taught to ALL monotheists not just christian.

This is what I figured, but I don't know enough information about other religions to speak out about them.

originally posted by: In4ormant
Why does God knowing what choices you will make negate the fact you were free to make any choice you wanted?

It doesn't.

It does. To us we have free will because we can't see our own future. To god he knows already. Meaning to god, everything we do is predetermined, but to us it isn't because we don't have knowledge of our future. Free will is just an illusion.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Artorias

So to start, I was raised as a southern babtist, and these were things I was taught, that seem relevant in every branch of Christianity:

1. God is all knowing.
2. God is all powerful.
3. God views the past, present, and future as one.

Easy peasy... your premise is faulty, therefore your conclusions are faulty.

Despite what it "seems" to you, no, not every branch of Christianity teaches that "God views the past, present, and future as one." I have, however, heard such claims made... but not by any Christians I know or any branch of Christianity.... so therefore not by all or "every" branch of Christianity.

I would be more inclined to believe that before our births, our souls or higher spirits establish certain goals or purposes for that life, and therefore one way or another circumstances and conditions will encourage or compel us to deal with certain issues to get us where we need to be to fulfill our goals. How we do so is up to us and our free will. We can do it the right way or the wrong way... the easy way or the hard way... with virtue or with vice... for good or evil... But get there we will!

So God knows where we going -- because we made the choice. And God knows the various ways we can get there.

I feel absolutely no different about God after reading this. Why would I? Your perceptions and/or misconceptions about God says everything about you, but little if anything about God.

We would just have to take your word over mine. Because I've literally only heard these claims about god. They are the fundamental reasons that make god, a god. I'm honestly not sure if I believe you. Like I said, that's what I was taught growing up (from Kentucky to north and South Carolina) now I live in Utah and the Mormons hold these values as well. Meaning, everyone I've ever met is wrong, or you are.

originally posted by: Artorias
But since we believe god is all knowing, he has to know that information before we are even created. Meaning there is no fair chance of getting into heaven.

If God created the multiverse, you probably get to visit both Heaven and Hell... thus all your free will is played out until you become one with God. At that point you become all knowing, all powerful and viewing the past, present, and future.

How many déjà vu moments have you had?

Moments like you've lived that moment before.

Like in a virtual reality game where you have to repeat moves until they're correct to get to the next level.

You're just one of the repeating players. Others have already played to the top level.

Who's at the controls? "God"?

Except I'm atheist. No "God" in the religious sense.

If God views the past, present, and future as one collective, then free will is just an illusion to us because we can't see our own future.

That's the first thing I said about this entire subject. You probably just misread that, but I've already accounted for what you think I haven't accounted for.

a reply to: Artorias

I know what the answer is but I don't know why you think you deserve to know.

Why do you deserve to know?

a reply to: Artorias

Just between you and me, I'd bet we're all a little right AND a little wrong

Otherwise, I have no idea how to prove this negative -- and why you would even question it. Or not say, "Hey! Learned something new," and research it!

If a church claims a certain tenet, it's obviously easy enough to prove that is one of their beliefs. But if they don't claim it, and they don't address it, all that would "prove" is they don't say one way or another. And such is the position I find myself in. I was raised in, and still pretty much adhere to, the Unity School of Christianity. If you can find something that says they teach such, then I will stand corrected...

But I will assert that I missed Sunday School that day!

a reply to: Artorias

You said, "there is no fair chance of getting into heaven."

Which you would be wrong if the multiverse model is correct.
If you become one with God, free will wouldn't be an illusion in a multiverse.