Trump signs executive orders to advance Keystone XL, Dakota Access pipelines

a reply to: JinMI

I see your critical thinking and raise you unbiased research. Finding information that you agree with is fast and easy and can pass as research. Really digging in and that means seeing and understanding the opposing view is equally as important. That is going the way of the dodo.

Headlines and click bait titles along with a deteriorating educational system has us on a very bad path.

I think you are bluffing. I see your critical thinking and unbiased research and raise you argumentum ad passiones. I understand both sides of this conflict. I will not be convinced that statements that are being presented in the fallacious arguments are true, solely on the basis that the statements may induce emotional stimulation such as fear, pity and joy.

Yes, a very bad path indeed. The zombie apocalypse is upon us.

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: amazing

But if you research..the plan is to ship it to China.

Source? Half a million barrels of oil a day will keep an entire refinery busy, there's plenty of jobs right there.

Maybe...but those refineries are already busy or working. How many more jobs? For the amount of money and legal fees etc...against the amount of jobs. A few dozen here a half a dozen there. It just doesn't seem like it's really in our best interest to build it.

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: dreamingawake

Yeah, I've read all the counter arguments.

Have you taken the time to read the court decision?
earthjustice.org...

Yes, that is prior to Dec's leak upstream as shared as one example that the tribe can present which they did not then as by that Sept. doc.

a reply to: amazing

Maybe...but those refineries are already busy or working. How many more jobs?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes, it is in the best interests of the nation.

a reply to: FamCore
The other thread seemed to run aground...
Below is a copy/paste from my post there.

I imagine our natives in ND live in deplorable surroundings rife with poverty. They are a people who never relied on economics until it was forced down their throats. And now they rely upon it because the Earth will stop rotating if they don't?

I feel the same way about Alaska's pipeline. People living in the vicinity of Alaska's pipeline are in a small way compensated for their choice to live in the vicinity of a pipeline.

Treating the natives like the Americans they are is paramount to a gov. ruling American's.
You have to put native American's first if you wish to portray any sense of integrity.

I'm thinking that the natives in ND should be compensated for compromising their water resource for a pipeline in the vicinity of said water source. Just show some fiscal responsibility.

Multiple well-sites within the reservation grounds...pipeline company to ensure the water they rely upon is not compromised by pipeline...they gain their own water source, and a few bucks to keep their museums open for the tourists interested in the culture.

If you have a reason to understand then you understand the reason?
if something means something to you, you should persist or let it go?

a reply to: dreamingawake

Yes, that is prior to Dec's leak upstream as shared as one example that the tribe can present which they did not then as by that Sept. doc.

EarthJustice is not going to present that to the courts, they are not stupid. That fear mongering tactic is left to the main stream media to feed to the uninformed public. Did you really read the 58 page court judgement?




www.dailywire.com...

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: dreamingawake

Yes, that is prior to Dec's leak upstream as shared as one example that the tribe can present which they did not then as by that Sept. doc.

EarthJustice is not going to present that to the courts, they are not stupid. That fear mongering tactic is left to the main stream media to feed to the uninformed public. Did you really read the 58 page court judgement?



www.dailywire.com...

DailyWire is in opposition(Rwing, oil supporting, or what have you) to it, don't expect them to see it beyond bias.

I specify that, read it months ago when it came out and recapped.

Well, there was a leak, I don't see it as fear mongering but rather a concern that should be addressed in the courts more so. As they need more recent court intervention on it before things escalate as it is. If you see that as stupid then we'll have to agree to disagree.

a reply to: dreamingawake

Perhaps the wrong choice of words, I didn't mean to imply anyone was stupid. If they advance the argument that an old gathering system that leaks 670 m3 is reason to stop the construction of a new mainline, I don't believe it will be effective. Time will tell.

It will be interesting to see what the effect of the Executive Order will be. I am expecting that rescinding or withdrawing the Notice of Intents will be the outcome and completion of the pipeline will happen shortly thereafter.

(ii) consider, to the extent permitted by law and as warranted, whether to rescind or modify the memorandum by the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works dated December 4, 2016 (Proposed Dakota Access Pipeline Crossing at Lake Oahe, North Dakota), and whether to withdraw the Notice of Intent to Prepare an Environmental Impact Statement in Connection with Dakota Access, LLC's Request for an Easement to Cross Lake Oahe, North Dakota, dated January 18, 2017, and published at 82 Fed. Reg. 5543;

Executive Order

a reply to: dreamingawake

DailyWire is in opposition(Rwing, oil supporting, or what have you) to it, don't expect them to see it beyond bias.

Don't shoot the messenger, is there anything in particular in their article that is not true?

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: dreamingawake

Perhaps the wrong choice of words, I didn't mean to imply anyone was stupid. If they advance the argument that an old gathering system that leaks 670 m3 is reason to stop the construction of a new mainline, I don't believe it will be effective. Time will tell.

It will be interesting to see what the effect of the Executive Order will be. I am expecting that rescinding or withdrawing the Notice of Intents will be the outcome and completion of the pipeline will happen shortly thereafter.

(ii) consider, to the extent permitted by law and as warranted, whether to rescind or modify the memorandum by the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works dated December 4, 2016 (Proposed Dakota Access Pipeline Crossing at Lake Oahe, North Dakota), and whether to withdraw the Notice of Intent to Prepare an Environmental Impact Statement in Connection with Dakota Access, LLC's Request for an Easement to Cross Lake Oahe, North Dakota, dated January 18, 2017, and published at 82 Fed. Reg. 5543;

Executive Order

Thanks for clarifying about the reply. Yes, will be interesting to see the Executive Order. If it goes through I sadly see a lot of opposition and strife. That in itself is worrying maybe there can be a compromise for either side instead of having that happen.

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: dreamingawake

DailyWire is in opposition(Rwing, oil supporting, or what have you) to it, don't expect them to see it beyond bias.

Don't shoot the messenger, is there anything in particular in their article that is not true?

Not saying the whole thing is bias as number one explains the situation and as there were arrested and violence. Well, not shooting the messenger as much as trying to point out that it is bias as would a pro Standing Rock article would be. Starting with but not limited to as to why is hared about the Dec. link for starters, and have shared pipeline leak info before on this site.

2. The pipeline would help the economy and is not environmentally unsafe. The Daily Wire's Hank Berrien reports:

IMO and of course others with the concern, it is unsafe.

3. The environmentalist left seems to think that the pipeline will somehow poison and ruin sacred Native American land.

It very well could coming down stream onto the land. That section goes on to point out Soros, that is a bias. Where he is diving, no doubt, he funds people in general on "that side" anyone can link anything to him in that case. I believe it has been discussed before on the site in more detail on claimed Soros funded thread topics.

6. The violence has been tamed for the time being.

Though, this isn't a main issue compared to the above, but am wanting to point out to those beginning to follow this: Older article, no date, would assume from Dec.(and I'm tapped out on the free pages of the Seattle Times to check the date, viewing it too much due to being the main local paper here).
Since then the violence has returned. Recent YouTube Filming Vids

7. The Department of Justice wouldn't let federal officials get involved in stamping out the violent protests.

Federal officials getting involved may have escalated it more so (see involvement in past altercations during the 90s for ex.). They at at least partly right for the concern. Though, there could have been a chance of deescalation it probably wouldn't without risk.

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: Kali74

Of course there's all the people that will be displaced as well.

People are being displaced? Where and for what reason?

Washington Post

But Harter, like thousands of other landowners, doesn’t have much choice. Two days earlier, Harter had been in court trying to stop TransCanada, which had asked a judge to let it exercise eminent domain and force Harter to give it access to his land. Harter lost.

a reply to: dreamingawake

2. IMO and of course others with the concern, it is unsafe.

What do you propose? A total ban on pipelines in the USA? Standing Rocks court case did not make arguments that the pipeline was unsafe, why do the activists?

3. The environmentalist left seems to think that the pipeline will somehow poison and ruin sacred Native American land.

Safest form of transport for crude is a modern pipeline. Standing Rock concern in their court case was the construction phase possibly damaging historic sites, proven unfounded in the court case.
court case pdf
The pipeline follows an existing pipeline, there is already pipe crossing Lake Oahe.
Route
Standing Rock's position is now more pragmatic.

But in recent weeks, particularly since Donald Trump won the national election, the tribal leadership seems to have moved the goal posts a bit. “I want to help him make this nation great again, and I want to help give him assistance, advice on how we can do that together and not leave the first occupants of this land behind,” tribal chairman David Archambault said yesterday ahead of a meeting between tribes, including Standing Rock, and Trump. “We can do the pipelines, we can do oil development, energy development, but not off our backs again. That’s basically all I would share with him.”

Standing Rock Clarifies their position

6. The violence has been tamed for the time being.

Tension is indeed high there and there has been recent violence. Standing Rock has asked the protestors to leave, the protestors seem to not be listening.

“We’re asking that the camp be cleared and we’re asking that people don’t come,” tribal chairman David Archambault said yesterday. “There are other ways that you can battle this. I think America has to stand up and we all have to go to D.C.”

Jan 24

Federal officials getting involved may have escalated it more so (see involvement in past altercations during the 90s for ex.). They at at least partly right for the concern. Though, there could have been a chance of deescalation it probably wouldn't without risk.

This is a matter for the courts, not an angry, violent group of illegal protesters. Do we allow illegal activists to hold legal infrastructure construction projects hostage if and when the DAPL is given a green light for completion?

originally posted by: Kali74

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: Kali74

Of course there's all the people that will be displaced as well.

People are being displaced? Where and for what reason?

Washington Post

But Harter, like thousands of other landowners, doesn’t have much choice. Two days earlier, Harter had been in court trying to stop TransCanada, which had asked a judge to let it exercise eminent domain and force Harter to give it access to his land. Harter lost.

After reading The Washington Posts article I have to say It's very misleading to claim 1000's are being displaced. There's nobody losing their homes. I'd like to give it a label of fake news, do you think that applies?

dis·place
disˈplās/Submit
verb
force (someone) to leave their home, typically because of war, persecution, or natural disaster.
"thousands of people have been displaced by the civil war"

em·i·nent do·main
nounLAW
the right of a government or its agent to expropriate private property for public use, with payment of compensation.

Pipeline companies do like to go in a straight line, however, they make concessions for dwellings. A team of landmen and surveyors work well in advance of the construction of the pipeline, ensuring this would be an extraordinary event.
As we see from the article, this guy is not losing his house, he's mad cause the pipeline is cutting across his property, and he apparently had no idea eminent domain existed. He's one of the select few where 'no amount of money is enough'

He doesn’t want it to, and he’s even fought to stop it. It’s not a question of how much TransCanada pays him. He just doesn’t want strangers and heavy equipment tearing a 110-foot-wide gash through his land, cutting down trees and burrowing under the sand hills and pasture.

There is no way you are going to keep everyone happy all the time. I'm sure he didn't mind the power poles running to his house, or the natural gas line (if he has this). How about if everyone took his stance and we had never developed anything? On a positive note, there are many landowners all to happy to see the landman drive up and drop off a big fat cheque for a pipe that will be buried and the surface reclaimed. Drive around anywhere there are pipelines, you can't see them unless they are of very recent vintage.

He worries that it could take years for the land to recover. And the pipeline, buried four or five feet deep, will be sitting in water, the same water that is part of the vast Ogallala aquifer and which lies so close to the surface that his pasture does not need to be irrigated. He worries that a spill or leak will spread because the soil is so porous.

Just wanted to comment on this part, i bet any money it's the rain that keeps that pasture growing, and not the 'aquifier water that is so close to the surface that he doesn't need irrigation'. If the water is that close to the surface, we'd call that swampland here, not pasture.

Oh wait, it gets better, I love the Washington Post. Here's the guy that didn't want strangers and heavy equipment on his land for 'any amount of money' right? Well then, explain why he goes on further in the article to say this?

He is weighing an offer from a wind-farm developer, who would pay an initial fee and annual royalties. TransCanada pays an initial fee that covers only temporary damage and inconvenience. Harter thinks three turbines would have less impact on his land, but he isn’t sure.

a reply to: D8Tee

Bang! Fake news. You are now excused from ever having another logical debate. No I don't think the label applies. Three turbines won't destroy his land.

a reply to: Kali74

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: Kali74

People are being displaced? Where and for what reason?

Kali74
Washington Post

You, Sir, have changed this story into fake news with your claim of people being displaced. There is a considerable difference between a pipeline going thru someones property and someone being displaced, would you agree? I asked what the source of your claim of people being displaced was, you gave me a link to a Washington Post article that shows no one is displaced.

dis·place
disˈplās
verb
force (someone) to leave their home, typically because of war, persecution, or natural disaster.
"thousands of people have been displaced by the civil war"

Three turbines won't destroy his land.

Pipeline won't destroy his land either. Economically speaking, he'll do better from the wind turbines. Environmentally speaking, in three or four years the pipeline right of way will be invisible.

originally posted by: loveguy
a reply to: FamCore
The other thread seemed to run aground...
Below is a copy/paste from my post there.

I imagine our natives in ND live in deplorable surroundings rife with poverty. They are a people who never relied on economics until it was forced down their throats. And now they rely upon it because the Earth will stop rotating if they don't?

I feel the same way about Alaska's pipeline. People living in the vicinity of Alaska's pipeline are in a small way compensated for their choice to live in the vicinity of a pipeline.

Treating the natives like the Americans they are is paramount to a gov. ruling American's.
You have to put native American's first if you wish to portray any sense of integrity.

I'm thinking that the natives in ND should be compensated for compromising their water resource for a pipeline in the vicinity of said water source. Just show some fiscal responsibility.

Multiple well-sites within the reservation grounds...pipeline company to ensure the water they rely upon is not compromised by pipeline...they gain their own water source, and a few bucks to keep their museums open for the tourists interested in the culture.

If you have a reason to understand then you understand the reason?
if something means something to you, you should persist or let it go?

You make many great points - I'm afraid the sad part is, the government has successfully stolen land and livelihood from natives time and time again, it's like a poorly behaved 5-year old who has learned he can throw tantrums and Mommy and Daddy will cave in to his demands, so he keeps on doing it.

BUT, I will say that with Social Media and so many people standing behind a cause, at some point they should have no choice but to work on a compromise rather than trying to bulldoze through everyone's wishes and just do as they please.

Time will tell how this one plays out.. I am that "optimist who carries an umbrella" when it comes to this pipeline.

a reply to: dreamingawake

I've read that the Army Corp of Engineers set up a bunch of meetings with the tribe that the tribe kept backing out of or ignoring them. The engineers went to council meetings that were supposed to start at 6 and the tribe would start the meeting at 5:30 and tell the engineers that they were late and they wouldn't be heard.

I've also read that the tribe wanted more money to go through their land than the pipeline company was willing to pay. Because a spill would have cost a lot more than that to clean up. So the pipeline company went around their land upstream where now a spill will get all of their land instead of half of it and they won't have a single dollar to clean up spills.

Pretty tough to sort out what's what in all of this. Misinformation everywhere.

a reply to: FamCore

BUT, I will say that with Social Media and so many people standing behind a cause, at some point they should have no choice but to work on a compromise rather than trying to bulldoze through everyone's wishes and just do as they please.

Social media and a bunch of angry violent activists somehow makes their cause right?
Where's the media attention for occupy wall street?

a reply to: FamCore

earthjustice.org...

The court case indicates Standing Rock was consulted properly, and yes, they did not seem interested in meeting with DAPL representatives.
I don't believe the route was an issue. The DAPL follows an existing pipeline right of way, it crosses the lake at the same place as existing pipelines. It is the best and most practical route.
The court case explains a lot and is at the heart of the matter, I wish more people would read it.

In the summer of 2014, Dakota Access crafted the route that brought DAPL to Standing Rock’s doorstep. See ECF No. 22, Exh. B (Declaration of Monica Howard), ¶¶ 2-3. The plotted course almost exclusively tracked privately held lands and, in sensitive places like Lake Oahe, already-existing utility lines. As only 3% of the work needed to build the pipeline would ever require federal approval of any kind and only 1% of the pipeline was set to affect U.S. waterways, the pipeline could proceed largely on the company’s timeline. Dakota Access nevertheless also prominently considered another factor in crafting its route: the potential presence of historic properties. Id. Using past cultural surveys, the company devised DAPL’s route to account for and avoid sites that had already been identified as potentially eligible for or listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Id., ¶¶ 2-4. With that path in hand, in July 2014, the company purchased rights to a 400-foot corridor along its preliminary route to conduct extensive new cultural surveys of its own. Id., ¶ 3. These surveys eventually covered the entire length of the pipeline in North and South Dakota,

The company also opted to build its new pipeline along well-trodden ground wherever feasible. See ECF No. 22-1 (Declaration of Joey Mahmoud), ¶¶ 18, 24, 40. Around Lake Oahe, for example, the pipeline will track both the Northern Border Gas Pipeline, which was placed into service in 1982, and an existing overhead utility line. Id., ¶ 18. In fact, where it crosses Lake Oahe, DAPL is 100% adjacent to, and within 22 to 300 feet from, the existing pipeline. Id.

In summary, the Corps has documented dozens of attempts it made to consult with the Standing Rock Sioux from the fall of 2014 through the spring of 2016 on the permitted DAPL activities. These included at least three site visits to the Lake Oahe crossing to assess any potential effects on historic properties and four meetings with Colonel Henderson

Conclusion As it has previously mentioned, this Court does not lightly countenance any depredation of lands that hold significance to the Standing Rock Sioux. Aware of the indignities visited upon the Tribe over the last centuries, the Court scrutinizes the permitting process here with particular care. Having done so, the Court must nonetheless conclude that the Tribe has not demonstrated that an injunction is warranted here. The Court, therefore, will issue a contemporaneous Order denying the Plaintiffs’ Motion for Preliminary Injunction.

There are unsubstantiated claims that point to the tribe trying to hold DAPL hostage for a per barrel toll on oil moved.

They had plenty of political clout, the Chiefs sister was Special Advisor to Obama.
Obama's buddy Warrren Buffet owns the railroad that moves a lot of the Bakken crude, he has profited tens of billions of dollars in the last decade from this.