Will the europeans ever be powerful?

Originally posted by Zibi
Lonestar24: you have no idea what you are talking about. When I said that the German IFV is better than the French IFV, by German IFV I meant the Puma IFV.

Hehe, I knew you were referring to the Puma. But this again shows that you have NO idea, you internet General. The Puma is technical demonstrator and will only start production in 2009, at the earliest. Thus, the "german IFV" still is, and will continue to be well into 2012-15, the Marder. What are we discussing about in this thread, do we want to speak about Science Fiction or Reality? Huh?

Originally posted by Zibi
No, I didn't contradict myself. When I said "Yes, but at least it is stable, unlike the euro", I meant that the dollar is stable.

Yes, you do contradict yourself by agreeing to post that declares the value of the Dollar losing against the Euro, and furthermore incorrectly refer to the Euro as instable, which it isnt as any single economist or banker on this earth can tell you.

About the F-15: my point was that the F-15 has never been shot down by any plane.

No, your point was that the F-15 is BETTER than the Typhoon (and Rafale) because it hasn´t been shot down before. You dont remember that? I´ll help you, you did so here, here, here, here, and here.


Hehe, he just put me on his ignore list...





[edit on 2/5/2006 by Lonestar24]

I don't care whether you (Lonestar24) think that the French military or the German military is stronger. Both militaries are crappy, and both militaries are inferior to the British military.

[edit on 1-5-2006 by Zibi]

The R.A.F is bigger than the rest of Europes air forces combined. Stick that in yer pipe an smoke it

Originally posted by Xeros
The R.A.F is bigger than the rest of Europes air forces combined. Stick that in yer pipe an smoke it

The RAF has a little over 1000 aircraft of all types (typically around 1/3rd of this number would be actual combat aircraft). I haven't checked the figures, but I would put a good chunk of money on the fact that the rest of Europes Air forces combined would be far larger.

About the dollar: it IS a stable currency. The American economy is marked by low inflation. Proof: www.cia.gov...

Originally posted by Zibi

About the F-15: my point was that the F-15 has never been shot down by any plane.

so by your " logic " the harrier is superiour to the f15 -- as harrier has never been shot down by another plane - and has longer service history

thank you for playing , logic is indeed dead

Originally posted by Xeros
The R.A.F is bigger than the rest of Europes air forces combined. Stick that in yer pipe an smoke it

Well, according to my figures taken from Flight International Nov 2004, so a bit out of date... I have merely totalled up arcraft described as COMBAT aircraft, and excluded aircraft on order or stored...

The French airforce and navy had 415 (Mirage 2000, F1, Jag, Etendards and a few Rafale)
The German airfoce and navy had 359 (Tornado, F4 and a few Typhoon)
The UK airforce and navy had 320 (Tornado, Jag, Harrier and a few Typhoon)

So, the RAF does not outnumber the rest of Europe. The Russian Federation is part of Europe too and they had 2400 listed combat aircraft, although very doubtful that they were all airwothy.

Oh, the facts

Regards

^^ Oh well guess you're right. My brother had an interview and told me that they told him this. Maybe they meant personel/maybe not. The funny thing is my Grandfather was a founder of the R.A.F so I should at least try to learn up on this out of respect.

Originally posted by paraphi

Originally posted by Xeros
The R.A.F is bigger than the rest of Europes air forces combined. Stick that in yer pipe an smoke it

Well, according to my figures taken from Flight International Nov 2004, so a bit out of date... I have merely totalled up arcraft described as COMBAT aircraft, and excluded aircraft on order or stored...

The French airforce and navy had 415 (Mirage 2000, F1, Jag, Etendards and a few Rafale)
The German airfoce and navy had 359 (Tornado, F4 and a few Typhoon)
The UK airforce and navy had 320 (Tornado, Jag, Harrier and a few Typhoon)

So, the RAF does not outnumber the rest of Europe. The Russian Federation is part of Europe too and they had 2400 listed combat aircraft, although very doubtful that they were all airwothy.

Oh, the facts

Regards

You only looked up the figther jets, or do these number include supporting aircrafts etc, training aircrafts, etc.?

To end this topic once and for all, Europe is not powerful.

European economies (the British economy is an exception) are marked by slow growth and high unemployment. European economies (the British economy is an exception) are prevented from growing by high taxation and labour laws that discourage employers from hiring employees.

The EU member countries (except for Great Britain) spend a little percentage of their GDP on defence. And the money that they do spend on the military is being wasted on crappy tanks like the Leclerc. Besides, EU member countries (except for Great Britain) cannot project power.

[edit on 2-5-2006 by Zibi]

Originally posted by Mdv2
You only looked up the figther jets, or do these number include supporting aircrafts etc, training aircrafts, etc.?

As I stated above, the RAF has around 1000 aircraft of all types, 1/3rd being combat aircraft. Judging by the amounts posted above, I would hazard a guess and say the French Airforce is still probably larger. Unsure on the Luftwaffe, mind you.

Let's look at the situation...
Europe has the military (on paper at least...I mean there is no coordination outside NATO,and EDF has 600 pages manual and not a single soldier),the economy to support it and build hi-tech equipment,2 veto-membres in UN and so on...Right now it is reasonably to say Europe is strong,but the trends (as it was said the birth rates are killing us slowly) are not good...
Even so I think the problem of Europe is not with military or ecconomic strenght,but with the will to exercise it...
Let's forget about Iraq and Afganistan...let's say it is a stupid war of the americans...OK?
There are lot of other places on this planet where terrorist governments are opresing their citizens,war is killing innocent children and so on...Europe can take the lead there and show the World there is a alternative to USA,that EU stands for some values and is ready to fight for them,protect them and give a chance to the people around the World that don't really have those rights...
And that's the real problem with Europe in my view...there is no will...no desire to sacrifice our "good lifes" for something...actually for anything at all...

[edit on 2-5-2006 by ZMax]

Originally posted by Zibi
The EU member countries (except for Great Britain) spend a little percentage of their GDP of defence. And that money that they do spend on the military is being wasted on crappy tanks like the Leclerc. Besides, EU member countries (except for Great Britain) cannot project power.

With the greatest respect Zibi you are wrong about military spend. Quoting from the CIA Factbook which you have frequently used reveals France spends a higher proportion of the GDP than the UK.

Regards

W/o any respect or disrespect..
Zibi, your seemingly juvenile bias towards Europe (esp. France) is very 'uninformed'.
France probably has the 2nd best military in the world w.r.t. power projection and is definitely in the top five for overall force/strike capabbilities..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Zibi, your seemingly juvenile bias towards Europe (esp. France) is 'uninformed'.

No, it is not. I have provided proof to back up my claim. And I am not biased towards Europe, I am a European myself (to be exact: a Polish citizen).

Originally posted by Daedalus3
France has the 2nd best military in the world.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How can France be the 2nd best military in the world? Their tanks are crappy, their fighters are crappy, and their navy has only 1 aircraft carrier in commission.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Zibi you are wrong about military spend.

You are right. France spends 2.6% of its GDP on the military, while Great Britain spends 2.4% of its GDP on the military.

[edit on 3-5-2006 by Zibi]

Originally posted by Zibi
No, it is not. I have provided proof to back up my point. And I am not biased towards Europe, I am a European myself (to be exact: a Polish citizen).

You neither know what you're talking about, there's only one source you believe in, and that's the CIA factbook, since when is the CIA an economic institution, you're 'proof' is based on pointless facts, especially when you trying to defend your pointless opinions about the American economy, and its 'strong' currency.

I am not even taking time to reply on that anymore. Especially your last comment where you basically state (again information from your holy CIA factbook) that the
US economy /currency is strong because it's has a low inflation rate. I can tell you the EU inflation rate is lower, and especially without countries such as Greece and Italy, it would be only lower. But of course, in contrast to your post, inflation isn't the only factor depending a currency's value.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
France has the 2nd best military in the world.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How can France be the 2nd best military in the world? Their tanks are crappy, their fighters are crappy, and their navy has only 1 aircraft carrier in commission.

I concur, France doesn't have the 2nd best army in the world, but you know the French chauvinism. And of course, they have highly respected battallions, e.g. the French Foreign Legion. If you are known with their training program, you certainly will agree.

Their tanks aren't 'crappy' they are just not the best tanks in the world. And furthermore, an army's combat ability doesn't only depend on numbers.




[edit on 3-5-2006 by Mdv2]

The use spends more on defense than something on the order of the next ten countries combined. However, this consumes less than 5% of GDP. That’s the issue you euros are ignoring. The nearly 13 trillion American economy allows for a globe spanning military at very low cost to America. America is the ONLY country that can effectively project power anywhere on earth.

The eu could spend more on defense, but that would come at the cost of their social welfare programs. If the recent riots in france are any indication, the eu populace is not too hot on that idea.

Long term, things aren’t going to get a lot better, given the eu demographic death spiral, higher debt burden, confiscatory level of taxation and resultant anemic economic and job growth

So the answer would be no.

The US spend on defense is massive and it is not going down - even the world's largest economy can't afford to keep wasting hundreds of billions. (Guess which nation has the largest debt ever recorded?)

The Euroland (ie Euro zone) economy is bigger than the US and growing, especially as other countries are added to. Europe is already a massive economic power, and one without the military commitments that the US is stuck with. There is no intention - and no need - to turn it into a military power. As the Japanese discovered some time back, there are much more effective ways of projecting power. Unfortunately the US is hooked on the military option and there does not seem to be a way out.

Originally posted by El Tiante
given the eu demographic death spiral

- Such a short-term view of the stats is hardly much use to anyone (unless you are pushing this silly and utterly pointless anti-Europe/EU agenda).

Only 30yrs ago we were all fretting about Malthusian futures and far too large populations and the baby boomers reproducing.

Interesting that Japan too has a low birth-rate at present (one that, IIRC one report I saw, said the indigenous Japanese would disappear by 3000......a timescale which gives the lie to these utterly ridiculous projections).

higher debt burden

- I don't think America is the greatest ground for talking about indebtedness (and operating on a daily deficit).

confiscatory level of taxation

- This is highly selective (or utterly ignorant) and depends entirely on how you look at it.

Did you know taxes across many countries in the EU reduce to almost zero when one has 3 or more children to bring up?

'We' also factor in far more things when appreciating our 'quality of life' than a absurd and simplistic tax calculation.
What we get for our taxes is prime.

resultant anemic economic

- Our 'net growth' (growth minus inflation) is actually not so bad.

job growth

- Again it entirely depends on how you calculate the figures.
Rarely is like compared to like.

In Germany, for instance, part time workers wanting a full time job are counted in the unemployed figures.

(Which, if done in the UK, would utterly destroy the British unemployment figures for a start)

But you carry on with this pointless and ridiculous pissing contest if you must, I'm sure you will (here and anywhere else you attempt to spam the board with this ludicrously simplistic and rather tedious trolling 'agenda'.)

Originally posted by Wembley

The US spend on defense is massive and it is not going down - even the world's largest economy can't afford to keep wasting hundreds of billions. (Guess which nation has the largest debt ever recorded?)

The Euroland (ie Euro zone) economy is bigger than the US and growing, especially as other countries are added to. Europe is already a massive economic power, and one without the military commitments that the US is stuck with. There is no intention - and no need - to turn it into a military power. As the Japanese discovered some time back, there are much more effective ways of projecting power. Unfortunately the US is hooked on the military option and there does not seem to be a way out.

The EU economy is expected to grow further over the next decade as more countries join the union - especially considering that the new member states are usually poorer than the EU average. Growth is almost assured, and hopes are high that this will lead to the modern dynamic of a united Europe. It is estimated that through 2010 the eurozone will grow 1.1 per cent annually1, which is significantly less than other industrialized nations such as the United States, which has an estimated GDP growth of 3 per cent annually through 2020.[4]

The EU's share of Gross world product (GWP) is falling. GDP growth, though strong in the new member states, is being affected by sluggish growth in France and especially Germany and Italy. The Benelux countries also have low growth.


en.wikipedia.org...

Um, that would be no.