Is there a dumbing down of music

I do believe the general term music jumped the shark when rap was accepted as a type of music.

a reply to: supermilkman

Ever see the film, Amadeus? I understand the "order" of their day, it was as political and agenda full as now. There was political correctness, seeped in moldy ritual and tradition...

Yawn...

They didn't have any freedom, Mozart was always in trouble struggling for freedom of expression.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I had an excerpt of this from my first post. If you actually read it you would've known this a long time ago.

Classical order
en.m.wikipedia.org...

"An Order in architecture is a certain assemblage of parts subject to uniform established proportions, regulated by the office that each part has to perform".[1]

The Architectural Orders are the ancient styles of classical architecture, each distinguished by its proportions and characteristic profiles and details, and most readily recognizable by the type of column employed. Three ancient orders of architecture—the Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian—originated in Greece.

To these the Romans added, in practice if not in name, the Tuscan, which they made simpler than Doric, and the Composite, which was more ornamental than the Corinthian. The Architectural Order of a classical building is akin to the mode or key of classical music, the grammar or rhetoric of a written composition. It is established by certain modules like the intervals of music, and it raises certain expectations in an audience attuned to its language. - Wikipedia

a reply to: intrptr

There's a balance between freedom and security.

People won't admit it but deep down they really want security and structure. People that are "free" are often flakey.

a reply to: JAY1980

That's actually a good example.

a reply to: intrptr

Religious intolerance is considered a hate crime and potential terrorist threat.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: supermilkman

So if I threw up on a canvas you would consider that art?

"Classical" art was judged back then by its replication of real life. How is that art?

The real world is art. A sunset, ocean surf, a field of flowers, wildlife, the night sky.

The best artists were those that could draw or paint the real world the best. In a single frame perspective. They didn't know from the tech we have today. And we have become complacent about it.

We can see the Universe thru telescopes, the micro verse thru microscopes, the deepest oceans, other planets...

Film, animation, musical concerts, radio, travel anywhere by plane and car.

We have it so much better today, than in the days of horse and buggy.

You can draw a stick figure, yes?

Well that's "art" but it's not sophisticated.

Can you draw the Mona Lisa?

If you could then that would be sophisticated. However you more than likely cannot.

You can draw a stick figure but I'm more than positive you can't draw the Mona Lisa.

originally posted by: NwoDedispU
a reply to: FelisOrion

This guy probably prefers out of control chimps screaming in stereo to actual music.

I know I do.

a reply to: supermilkman

People won't admit it but deep down they really want security and structure. People that are "free" are often flakey.

I see. Order as in Authoritarian kind. Ever read 1984? Seen Network? The ecological balance, structure and order you speak of is the excuse greedy control freaks use to Lord it over everyone, thru their version of Order.

No independence, autonomy, sovereignty, self determination...

...just the Overlords version of, "ordered" life as they see fit to bestow upon us.Someone needs to come up out of Plato's Cave.

a reply to: supermilkman

You can draw a stick figure, yes?

Well that's "art" but it's not sophisticated.

Can you draw the Mona Lisa?

If you could then that would be sophisticated. However you more than likely cannot.

You can draw a stick figure but I'm more than positive you can't draw the Mona Lisa.

How does a single painting even compare to modern film, many of which are considered masterpieces of contemporary art??

I'm guessing you can't grind a camera lens or build a telescope either.

This is art...

Hubble images

a reply to: supermilkman

and art is used to enlighten me.

a reply to: supermilkman

OP You need to sample some progressive rock. Yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Deep Purple, some Frank Zappa even. These bands actually incorporated orchestras into their performances. Pink Floyd's the Wall is a story in itself.

But you bring up modern acts. Well for that I direct you to an American Prog rock band of sorts. Umphrey's McGee:

These guys are all equally talented and use complicated hand signals on stage to signal key changes to continue jamming so perfectly.
They also do some damn good covers


Saying that music is getting worse these days is just indicative of a lack of trying for looking. You don't have to like what is popular, but people are ALWAYS making good music.

ETA: I challenge you to listen to that whole 12 minute live song I posted there and try to tell me that isn't great musicianship.

There is only one musical group in the world.

MMJ, they are the innovators.
Everyone else, they are the imitators.

I kid, by the way. My favorite band, but you won't find me putting down other forms of music just because I like them the best.

a reply to: supermilkman

Well, sometimes I think Heavy Metal is misunderstood, but hey..it's all subjective. Alot of metal is just a reflection or voicing frustration at what is going on..the not so pretty stuff, not often is it promoting bad stuff. Some of it is very technical and brilliant, some more dissonant with no melody line..some is crap. For me the bubble gum lyrics that say nothing don't do it for me.
There is alot of dumb music I guess, I search for good music that is well recorded and an effort made..it's out there.

Well rap does rhyme with crap.

All you got is a bunch of spear chuckers on the back of a garbage truck.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: supermilkman

People won't admit it but deep down they really want security and structure. People that are "free" are often flakey.

I see. Order as in Authoritarian kind. Ever read 1984? Seen Network? The ecological balance, structure and order you speak of is the excuse greedy control freaks use to Lord it over everyone, thru their version of Order.

No independence, autonomy, sovereignty, self determination...

...just the Overlords version of, "ordered" life as they see fit to bestow upon us.

Someone needs to come up out of Plato's Cave.

Your identity is your social security number.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: supermilkman

You can draw a stick figure, yes?

Well that's "art" but it's not sophisticated.

Can you draw the Mona Lisa?

If you could then that would be sophisticated. However you more than likely cannot.

You can draw a stick figure but I'm more than positive you can't draw the Mona Lisa.

How does a single painting even compare to modern film, many of which are considered masterpieces of contemporary art??

I'm guessing you can't grind a camera lens or build a telescope either.

This is art...

Hubble images

Right but I'm talking about classical order. Classical order still exist but, like you said, many have become complacent and pampered to actually have any real skill.

One has access to paint brushes, compass and rulers, graphs yet our quality of life has made a lot of people simple and less sophisticated.

There's still sophisticated people that exist in the world but I think that most aren't willing to discipline themselves to learn advanced mathematics or the classics.

In China children are learning the classics as young as 4 years old. Of course you have prodigies in every walk of life but overall there is a lack of discipline with many people which more than likely is indicative of a lackadaiscal and spoiled culture.

Instead of learning the classics people are playing video games. Instead of learning architecture people are obsessed with celebrity gossip. This isn't everyone, it's just a lot of people don't have discipline. Even your intermediate guitarists are not as disciplined as they think they are.

a reply to: supermilkman

As for the Hubble telescope THAT is an example of advanced mathematics. The Hubble telescope and it's quality of footage is SOPHISTICATED.

Your average joe on the other hand wouldn't have a clue how to operate one let alone build one.

Same thing with your everyday cameras. Many people know how to take pictures with them but they don't know how they actually work or how to build one.

a reply to: intrptr

The microcosm is reflective of the macrocosm and vice versa.

As above, so below.

Those who fail to understand the heavens don't fully understand the science. If they don't fully understand the heavens or the science then their work is incomplete.

Everything that exists is atoms. There is atoms in your body and the star dust and planets in the universe are atoms as well. There are atoms everywhere, on a microscopic level to a macro-level.

There is heaven, man, and earth.

Heaven is your thoughts, your dreams, your meditation, your ideas, your contemplation.

Mankind is the human race which is autonomous.

Earth is the world that we habitat which has much resources.

If a man wanted to invent a chair the flow chart would like this:

Heaven: mentally invisions building a chair

Man: you

Earth: man goes to the world, finds wood, then builds chair.

If a man wanted to write a song the flow chart would look like this:

Heaven: thinks about a song, the melody, the tune, key, the composition

Man: you

Earth: man uses instruments and puts his ideas into an actual song.

There is heaven, man, and earth. The mind shapes the universe.
My argument was that if one doesn't understand mathematics (specifically classical order) then their work isn't as sophisticated.

Classical order is an understanding of mathematics and geometry.

It is a blend of math and art.

I believe that if you can't perform the classics, you're not a complete musician.

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: supermilkman

Well, sometimes I think Heavy Metal is misunderstood, but hey..it's all subjective. Alot of metal is just a reflection or voicing frustration at what is going on..the not so pretty stuff, not often is it promoting bad stuff. Some of it is very technical and brilliant, some more dissonant with no melody line..some is crap. For me the bubble gum lyrics that say nothing don't do it for me.
There is alot of dumb music I guess, I search for good music that is well recorded and an effort made..it's out there.

You're right. It often has a bad reputation like rap does. They are, at times, actually a form of political poetry.

Metallica's Master of Puppets talks about many themes. One of them being that the corporate ruling class/politicians sending troops to fight their wars. If one didn't delve deep into the subject matter they would think they're just being metal heads but the truth was the album was a statement against politicians.

A lot of hip-hop was originally a political statement about institutionalized racism. People that were screwed over by a racist jury, crooked cops, Jim crow, housing ordinances and dealing with the everyday struggle of low income neighborhoods.

Somebody else brought up a good point in that it's the message that is ultimately important to think about. If the message is to spread awareness to injustices going on in the world then music has traditionally been an outlet to express those injustices.

So not all metal or hip-hop have negative messages. I actually like glam metal because they don't take themselves too seriously and can still have good, powerful messages. Death metal on the other hand seems like it's nothing but hate.

Some hip-hop also has a good message but most of it is negative. Hip hop is no longer a political tool, it just turns people into thugs.