My Opinion I Wont Curse This Time-M

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

And what do you think the US is going to do, sit back and take it? The instant either Russia or China (or both) decide to attack the United States with nuclear weapons, they are writing their own one-way ticket back to the stone age as well.

Tell that to the Americans(it may even be a loved one) that are rotting in front of you from radiation poisoning and to families of those who never saw their children, partner, parents and friends, because they were incinerated in a nuclear fire storm or simply melted on the spot from the furious heat. Tell that to our next generations of Americans who will have to live in intense colds, without electricity and have to drink poisoned water and breathe radiation. And ask them "Why did this happen and was it worth it"

Maybe you should ask a few Russians that as well. They're also going to be killed by the millions if Russia launches a nuclear strike on the US. And that's the point. Any Russian leader who pushes the button against the US is signing the death warrant not only of the US, but also his own country. The US will launch a massive counterstrike that will completely destroy its attacker as well. The best case scenario for Russia if they launch a first strike is that their leadership emerges unscathed from a bunker in a year to find 100 million of its citizens dead and its economic and military infrastructure destroyed. The US would be in a similar situation.

This is the reason why a nuclear war never happened between the US and the Soviets during the 60s and 70s. Both players had nothing to gain from a nuclear first strike and everything to lose. That still applies today.

indigo_child has drank too much koolaid today (actually became a koolaid factory ). She's just daydreaming her fondist wishes (that the U.S. be destroyed by a nuclear holocaust).

Maybe you should ask a few Russians that as well.

Yup, you missed the point. The point is; it is not going to be any consolation to the all the Americans who suffer in the nuclear holocausts, that America attacked Russia too. They will all ask "Why" and "Was it worth it"

Is attacking the sovereign country of Iran, when it has done nothing to America, worth it? Do you Americans want to suffer unimaginable pain and see your loved ones die and your set on fire for this? If you do. You deserve what is coming to you.

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Soul_Contagious
If your right and both partys(left and right) are just and illustion and really work together or behind us...are they ever going to come forword as a group?

Why should they? By having each side advance a seperate part of a single agenda and pretending to argue about it these parties have kept the American public from rebelling for over a century. What would they gain from rubbing our noses in it?

Think about it:
Republicans don't really fight illegal immigration, even though they're supposedly against it do they?
Democrats tend to be a little soft-spoken but they don't really dig in their heels and stop wars, they even start them sometimes. Bay of pigs, Vietnam, the Monica Missiles, etc.
Republicans have ruled 20 out of 28 years between 1980 and 2008, and now they control the congress as well, but they haven't dismantled the welfare state.
Democrats seem to be consciously avoiding the issues they can win right now. You'd think they could at least have pushed new accounting standards or stiffer penalties after the Enron thing, but why should they; The two parties are funded by all of the same interest groups and businesses!

The two parties are the same on almost every "big picture" issue, then they make up unimportant issues to disagree over and present the illusion of two parties. Just for example take gay marriage; that was never any of their business! The government doesn't have any say in who can or can't marry. It's a religious/social institution for people who want a family, and by allowing single parents to keep their kids the government proves that you don't need both genders to have a family. The two parties took something that should have been a single open-and-shut court decision and agreed to fight over it just to make a show of their disagreement.

Originally posted by vor78

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You are right soul. American people are in a LOT, a LOT of BLEEPING trouble. I can see it already. I can see those Russian and Chinese nukes raining down on Americans cities and setting it on fire. And those telling you you've lost your mind, have in reality lost their own: In 2003, May 18, Russia was preparing mass nuclear strikes on America:

Russia will "launch" a mock nuclear attack against the U.S. and Britain during military exercises over the next week.
Moscow's Nezavisimaya Gazeta reports that Russia's strategic bombers and nuclear submarines "will deliver hypothetical nuclear strikes on the U.S. and Britain, while locating and destroying aircraft-carrier groups of the U.S. Navy."

Yep, your right America is absolutely BLEEPED! If the people don't recognize that, then they fully deserve it.[edit on 31-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

And what do you think the US is going to do, sit back and take it? The instant either Russia or China (or both) decide to attack the United States with nuclear weapons, they are writing their own one-way ticket back to the stone age as well.

Vor is right. The Russians aren't insane. They know what will happen if a nuclear war breaks out. They are just keeping their forces up to speed so that their deterrent remains credible.
We do this to them all the time, they do it to us all the time. I bet even France does it to both us and them.
Usually it doesn't make the papers. This time it did because Russia was trying to create a political stir and openly say to America that they have a deterrent and will use it if attacked.

I'm genuinely surprised that Indigo has failed to see the utter foolishness in the idea of a nuclear war. I had thought that of all people, one who is constantly speaking of religious wisdom, enlightenment, and even the consequences of the Vedic wars would know to a certainty that such a war is nothing short of a collective suicide for the human race. If things got so bad that a nations future circumstances in existence would never be acceptable, then they might push the button, but it is suicide and nobody wants to resort to that.

Of course Russia knows that it's destruction is also assured if it attacks America. However, the alternative is sitting back and watching America spread like a cancer in it's region. There is a very fundamental law of probability - it goes something like this; what can happenwill happen. Nuclear war is a very real possibility and nuclears weapons will be used if a third world war happens, that is what they are made for. All it needs is a trigger. And Americas meglomania can be a trigger.

Democracy ? All that is, is glorified mob rule if this country was a Democracy only rich white men would be able to vote and Black people wouls still be property. F democracy I'll stick with the flawed republic....as far as GW If he starts an unprovoked war with Iran I'll be the first one shouting for his removeal....but my god what do you expect they ran Kerry against him, did the dems just give up.

Originally posted by twitchy
The soverignty of the American People is a memory. It was a noble concept and worked well right up until the industrial revolution. They don't call that period in american history a revolution for nothing. The capitalist seized control of the US legislature, and under the guise of a two party system have governed this country ever since. This is not a democracy, it is a republic, and a republic in a given time, is inherently prone to the corruption of a power base of the ruling class. The last bastion of the will of the american people was recently and quietly stolen away by the 'digitalization' of our electoral process, and as such I really don't believe that we, the citizenry of this country, can any longer be held accountable for our foriegn and domestic policies.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Maybe you should ask a few Russians that as well.

Yup, you missed the point. The point is; it is not going to be any consolation to the all the Americans who suffer in the nuclear holocausts, that America attacked Russia too. They will all ask "Why" and "Was it worth it"

Is attacking the sovereign country of Iran, when it has done nothing to America, worth it? Do you Americans want to suffer unimaginable pain and see your loved ones die and your set on fire for this? If you do. You deserve what is coming to you.

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Where have I indicated that I would support a US invasion of Iran? The truth is, I have very strong reservations about the US doing so.

But again, as for Russian involvement, it very likely wouldn't happen directly, but, at best, by proxy, much like Vietnam. The only way the US and Russia will ever come to blows directly is if one attacks the other and proves an immediate and undeniable threat to the other's existence. Then, the country attacked may feel it has nothing to lose by launching a nuclear strike. Otherwise, it is foolishness and guarantees the destruction of both countries. The Russians are neither insane nor suicidal. Again, you also have to ask that same question to the Russians: Is it worth it to guarantee your own annihilation over a country like Iran?

In this instance, Russia is much, much, MUCH better off just letting the US attack Iran and doing their best to oppose the US behind the scenes. Even if they are not successful at this, the Russians still live to fight another day, so to speak.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Of course Russia knows that it's destruction is also assured if it attacks America. However, the alternative is sitting back and watching America spread like a cancer in it's region. There is a very fundamental law of probability - it goes something like this; what can happenwill happen. Nuclear war is a very real possibility and nuclears weapons will be used if a third world war happens, that is what they are made for. All it needs is a trigger. And Americas meglomania can be a trigger.

With all due respect, nuclear weapons are not for world war three. Nuclear weapons are for deterring the use of nuclear weapons.
Russia has alternatives beyond resorting to nuclear war. Just for example, they might convince China to help them form a multi-national peacekeeping coalition to station forces on the Iranian border and separate the two nations. America knows that its financial future is linked to trade with China and will not overrun a Russo/Chinese force just to get at Iran.
Another option would be for Russia to begin political dealings with African nations in an attempt to convince 2/3s of the UN General Assembly to vote America out of the UN, which would make it possible for the UN Security Council to deploy peacekeeping forces against an American invasion without America having veto power.
Russia could even just give a nuclear weapon to Iran right now, which would ensure that Iran would never have to use it.

I strongly believe that despite the monumental stupidity our race is capable of, human intelligence is adequate to keep us from exterminating ourselves as long as we choose to ACT on our intelligent ideas rather than our foolish impulses.

EDIT: you know it just occurred to me Indigo, you are the one who made such a strong point to me in the past that talking about war was foolish and that it could become self-fulfilling. Ironic that I should finally budge ever so slightly towards your point of view and somehow we still find ourselves coming to different conclusions.

[edit on 31-1-2005 by The Vagabond]

It is only a matter of time before someone pushes the reset button on the world it will happen some day and who knows it may start by accident. As far as any kind of civil war in the US who would fight who? Maybe the problem is the fact that we always want to blame sombody else for our troubles.

With all due respect, nuclear weapons are not for world war three. Nuclear weapons are for deterring the use of nuclear weapons.

That is a psychological effect of nuclear weapons. However, a weapon, is made for the expressed purpose of being used. It is not really a question of if nuclear war will happen, it's a question of when. In a third world war a nuclear war is almost certain, and this is just common sense, as Einstien said.

Russia has alternatives beyond resorting to nuclear war. Just for example, they might convince China to help them form a multi-national peacekeeping coalition to station forces on the Iranian border and separate the two nations. America knows that its financial future is linked to trade with China and will not overrun a Russo/Chinese force just to get at Iran.

America is going to war with Iran and it is doing it in defiance of the international community. Bush calls it NWO and unilateralism. It is not really a question of what Russia and China should do. It's a question of what Ameria does - and when it does - what Russia and China will do.

Another option would be for Russia to begin political dealings with African nations in an attempt to convince 2/3s of the UN General Assembly to vote America out of the UN, which would make it possible for the UN Security Council to deploy peacekeeping forces against an American invasion without America having veto power.

I don't think you understand. The UN was against the actions on Iraq and US went ahead with it anyway and the UN then went along with it anyway. The UN watched powerless and still can't do anything about US, and why should it, it is a US creation. I for one don't believe in the sham that the UN is.

Russia could even just give a nuclear weapon to Iran right now, which would ensure that Iran would never have to use it.

That would be a violation of the NPT. Further "a nuclear weapon" would not be enough of a deterrent for Iran's foreign policy towards Israel. And I don't think Iran would agree with that.

I strongly believe that despite the monumental stupidity our race is capable of, human intelligence is adequate to keep us from exterminating ourselves as long as we choose to ACT on our intelligent ideas rather than our foolish impulses.

Everyone is capable of acting on inpulse, on impulse we do the greatest and the most regrettable things. Destruction is a part of human nature, and we are capable of using "a nuclear weapon" we already have. Everyone has their finger on the button, all it needs is that trigger, and as I said a meglomanical America will be that trigger. Russia does not need to be attaked directly for that. However, it will allow it's position to be undermined in it's region by America. It will react, I can assure you of that and if America does not respect Russia wishes, it will push Russia over the edge. Russia will declare war and it will escalate into a nuclear war very quickly.

That is why America's madness needs to be stopped, because if it's not, it will have consequences for the world.

EDIT: you know it just occurred to me Indigo, you are the one who made such a strong point to me in the past that talking about war was foolish and that it could become self-fulfilling. Ironic that I should finally budge ever so slightly towards your point of view and somehow we still find ourselves coming to different conclusions.

I am not talking about waging wars. I am telling you the effects of what will happen if America continues it's madness. I don't want this to happen and I also don't want a sovereign people to be criminally attacked like this. And I honestly cannot see why anyone would want this at all. All I can see is a lot of blind hate and arrogance. And for my sake and the worlds sake, I don't want to perish in a nuclear war and I don't want to have a future of drinking poisoned water. For once I would like society to listen what I want, because this is my life, and I should have the right to have control over my life.

If people want war and hate each other so much, let them all go to war on a battlefield with swords, maces and bows and arrows and duke it out. I want peace, and I am going to stay home and try and live my life.

[edit on 1-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

You have every right to your opinion, especially since America has got blood on its hands in this situation, but I believe you are focusing entirely too much on America. It almost sounds as if you believed America alone was dragging the whole world over the brink and that it is not only inevitable but good that America will end up fighting a nuclear war. I don't know for sure if thats what you believe, but I certainly do not believe either of those things.

We have used the bomb, but not since other nations had it. There has never been a direct war between nuclear powers. The selfish and violent nature of humanity has brought us a great deal of horror, but it also serves to prevent us from going too far in some cases. Nobody is going to make a move that can only destroy them. Nobody is going to be the first one to push that button if there is any alternative what-so-ever.

America wants to invade Iran very badly, but it is within the power of Russia and China to deter us from dong so. If they do not choose to do this, then it is only logical that they do not intend on defending Iran. Why would they jump straight into a fight with us before even attempting to have us back down?


Einstein said that a third world war would include the use of nuclear weapons, but he also said that world war four would be fought with sticks and stones. There is more than one way of interpreting this. I for one am not of the opinion that he was talking about nuking ourselves back into the stoneage. I think he was alluding to a war of words- learning our lesson about the horrors of modern weaponry and swearing off of war.

The weapons of modern warfare are fast approaching a stalemate, or a Mexican Standoff. War between advanced nations is, or at least is becoming, completely unthinkable. The day is coming when it will be literally impossible for two nations far from eachother to fight a war because the opening exchange between space-based systems, missiles, lasers, etc would nearly eliminate the offensive capabilities of each side.

Every so often I'm wrong about something, but everything that I know tells me that "world wars" as we know them are done for. Terrorist attacks, coups, revolutions, conspiracies, play "geo-political chess" for control over third world nations, undermining the opponents economy: that's world war now, and we've been fighting that knd of war since 1946.
There is a chance that eventually one nation will make a great leap forward and become able to crush all others, but if this happens it will not be WWII of the 1940s. It will be the WWII of the mid 30s, with the dominant power swallowing other nations right and left while rivals back up and search for a way to deal with the problem.

In so many words: Be aware of the potential for the worst, but entertain the possibility of the best. How can we just resign ourselves to nuclear holocaust?