NEWS: Mexico threatens Arizona over Anti-Illegals Measure

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There is a slightly obscure provision of Nafta that allows a foreign corporation to sue any government(s) local or national that impinges on FUTURE profits for the amount of those profits.

If he or a corporation can show they are financially hit by this foreign legislation they can sue for damages.

Always gotta read the fine print on treaties, agreements, or contracts. The lowest breed of lawyers depend on you not reading it. The same kind that write 14 lbs 3000 page legislation in Washington.
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All I can say is it's a sad day in America when illegals have rights like citizens and can get more benefits than legals. How is it they can get health care when so many Americans must do without?
Why should they get driving licenses?
Why should they have jobs when Americans can't get work?

for Arizona/

America loves its illegal immigrants! How many of you legal American citizens are willing and thankful to work in fields picking crops, removing rocks? Working in factories 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week? All for dollars a day!

As for America not being able to take care of its own, maybe we should kick some of these nasty behaviors like dumping tons and tons of grain into the sea to "stabalize" grain markets, or paying farmers Not to farm, or maybe that 420.7 Billion dollar military budget. Looks more like an issue of priorities than economics.

chakotay says:

"Tovenar, I vote you way up for opposing racism. To the rest of you, shame. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was written under fraudulent circumstances by the US, and when Mexico brings it before an International Tribunal you boys are going to be buying mukluks."

Rubbish.

I defy you to show how or where either the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo or the subsequent Gadsden Purchase can be considered "fraudulent"; either by the laws of 1848 (at which time, by the way, there was no "international law"); or by the standards of 2005.

No one will argue that the war was immoral and imperialistic, which is completely irrelevant. The United States picked a fight with Mexico because the Mexicans had something we wanted and we were stronger, which is exactly what the Spaniards did to the Aztec, which was exactly what the Aztec did to the Mixteca and the Mexica and so on back to the mistiness of prehistory.

You're going to have to learn to live with the fact that stronger and/or more dynamic cultures will, when they conflict with weaker and/or more static cultures, win and take away the latter's stuff.

I do not doubt that it will happen again, with the United States of America being the weaker and/or more static culture, and someone else will win and take away our stuff.

But that time is not yet.

Meanwhile, wailing over past conflicts may or may not be a catharsis for you, but it's not going to change history (past or future); and crying "racism" whenever you see something you don't like will probably not get you much sympathy, either.

I don't have a strong opinion about US immigration laws, nor do I know about the circumstances around this article. I don't want to argue about politics. I tried not to comment on this thread, but I think I have to say something - not about politics, but about human beings.

First, someone wrote that people who go to the US illegally would be perfectly welcome if they would just do it the legal way. I just wanted to tell that person to read up about immigration laws. A poor, uneducated Mexican with a wife and kids to support will be hard pressed to find a way into the US legally. To come into the US legally, you generally need either close family who are Americans, a company that is will to sponsor you into the country, or to be running from political persecution. It is not something that just anyone can do. If there were a way to come legally, the vast majority of those who are coming illegally would do what it took to become legal. That's why when the US offers amnesty, illegal immigrants show up and do the paperwork necessary to become legal. Illegal immigrants go to the US illegally because it is the only way they can find to go there.

Remember that crossing the border is not just legally risky for Mexicans coming illegally. They risk their lives. A person who is willing to risk his life would certainly be willing to fill out some paperwork, if that were a viable option.

Second, the people who are writing about "alien hunting" are saying something horrific. I can't believe that I'm the first person to point this out. How can you distinguish between a legal and illegal alien? Will you start hunting everyone with brown skin? Even if you could somehow make the distinction, I think you need some moral perspective. A poor person doing work that harms no one in order to improve his and his children's future may be breaking the law, but killing him for wanting to make a decent living seems a little... well, insane.

Contary to the implications of some posts here, illegal Mexican immigrants are not coming to steal American jobs or destroy American culture. They are coming to put food on the table and get their kids a decent education.

You may not want immigrants coming across the border in large numbers or you may want better controls against illegal immigration, and that's your political opinion and not something I'm interested in arguing about. But when you start talking about wanting to hurt or kill people just because they want to work or using animalistic analogies to describe people (for example, the need to "round them up" or Mexicans "breeding" or the especially ugly imagery of "hunting" certain kinds of human beings), you have crossed the line into racism. If you want to be a racist and you're proud of it, then you have something in you that I won't pretend to understand. But if you don't think of yourself as a racist, then some ways of talking about this sad issue should bother your heart.







[edit on 28-1-2005 by Estrella]

[edit on 28-1-2005 by Estrella]

People get nowhere when they worry about actions of the past. Things are the way they are today because that is what happened; it's that simple. If America were a 3rd world country and Mexico had as much money as we do, do you not think something similar would be happening with the border problems; just in a reverse fashion? Guess what, that means it likely wouldn't be people with only "brown" skin that would be trying to get across. Color has nothing to do with any of this. Consequences and actions (or lack thereof) are what we are seeing. No, illegal aliens don't come across the border for jobs thinking they can steal one that might have been given to a U.S. citizen; but that is the reality of what IS happening. So this is how America answers. The problem has gone on for long enough that actions are what it takes to change at least some of the consequences. American border patrol officers don't have orders of "shoot to kill" when they catch an illegal, they try to apprehend. I'm sorry, but anyone in the world who doesn't understand it this way needs to get the clue. The same kind of laws have been put in place in other countries around the world. Why are there not so many questions about why those countries enacted their laws as well? The U.S. does as much as it can to keep from becoming a police state because it knows it became what it is by not going that route. The problem is unless America enacts laws like the one in Arizona, or other border states America WILL be forced to inch closer to a police state around those border states due to faked ignorance out of another form of ignorance. Once again I say "STOP WHINING". Assumptions about modern day decisions dealing with the color of someones skin are one of the lowest forms of ignorance there is. It's a catch-22 when the person who is not racist sees racist comments come from the speech of someone else who claims they are still opressed by it. There's also a scientific term for it. It's called a Conditioned Response. One last time, "STOP WHINING" and karma usually wins over the scenario for the best that could happen.

Originally posted by Estrella


First, someone wrote that people who go to the US illegally would be perfectly welcome if they would just do it the legal way. I just wanted to tell that person to read up about immigration laws. A poor, uneducated Mexican with a wife and kids to support will be hard pressed to find a way into the US legally. To come into the US legally, you generally need either close family who are Americans, a company that is will to sponsor you into the country, or to be running from political persecution.

Contary to the implications of some posts here, illegal Mexican immigrants are not coming to steal American jobs or destroy American culture. They are coming to put food on the table and get their kids a decent education.

First, Barring a criminal record or something along those lines...ANYONE can get into the U.S. legally, so your statement is wrong.
Wether that poor mexican is meaning to steal jobs or ruin the economy, or not....he/they are!
How about he/they fix their OWN government so he/they DON"T have to steal our jobs or ruin our economy.

As a tourist, you're sort of right - many people can easily get a tourist visa to the US for 6 months. That doesn't give them the right to work, though. Also, even that fairly easy visa isn't within everyone's reach. The border control often asks Mexicans crossing the border for proof that they have a job and a home and are paying bills in Mexico, and if they can't produce that evidence, they aren't given a tourist visa.

Also, while it is relatively easy to get a tourist visa (with which a person working in the US would be breaking the law), to get a work visa or to immigrate, it is a different story. See these links to get more information about the requirements for immigrating to or working in the US:

uscis.gov...

ted.behlendorf.com...

As for what illegal immigration does to the US, that is a political issue and you are welcome to your political opinion. I don't care if you want stronger anti-immigration laws. I simply want some posters here to remember that the issue is about human beings who are trying to work, not animals or blood-thirsty demons.




[edit on 29-1-2005 by Estrella]

Another thing, legal aliens have to know english, right? SO if we got rid of these damn illegal ones then someone could get a job by knowing english, not denied the job because they don't know spanish. Even better, Florida had to pass a law that ENGLISH WAS TO BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL! Thats right, so many illegals that don't know a lick of english in Florida that they had to pass a law that english, not cuban, was to be taught. WTF? Why doesn't the INS go to florida and kick them all out? Is it to hard for a gov. worker to get off their fat ass and do some work? Instead of strip searching granny, why not go to a school, round up the kids who don't know english even though in high school, get the parents, and ship them back! Or better yet, they want out so badly, ship them to Africa, that way when other illegals start thinking about coming to America they will know when caught they will be shipped to Africa, and decide hey, not so bad here, have water, food, no diseases that could wipe out the world.(ebola, aids, all that other crap from Africa)

Damn, I feel so sorry for Egypt when people say it is an African country when it is an arab country. Or South Africa, they are in trouble, so many people have aids that others are worried that 20 years from now we won't have an African population left. Or Cambodian, Thailand, and other places where aids has spread like wildfire. Damn, someone should stop funding those damn abstinence programs that don't work and use that money to cure aids or we will literally lose billions of people. I know, its Africa, Cambodia, Thailand, other 3rd world areas we don't care about. But you should, just because they have dif. color skin or culture doesn't mean they deserve to die.

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
I wish we could fight the alamo all over again, this time practice scorched earth theory and rid the earth of this problem

No racism on this thread, huh?

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Hmmm, how about we all have a little ATS alien hunt? Who ever bags the most illegal aliens wins. Well, American ATSers, unless you British and Australian and French and Canadian and whoever want to join in on the hunt.

Hey SevenZero,

Still not seeing any racism on this thread? Funny how other white nations are invited to "Join in the hunt." This is the kind of racism that hides behind the law in Arizona.

Tell me again how this isn't about the color of someone's skin.

Anytime you see "nationalism" or "patriotism," whether its directly from Bush, or from his supporters on this thread, you know that those words are code for racism.







[edit on 29-1-2005 by tovenar]

Originally posted by tovenar

Anytime you see "nationalism" or "patriotism," whether its directly from Bush, or from his supporters on this thread, you know that those words are code for racism.

I was the first one you accused of racism. At that point on the thread, there was NONE! The other comments mad, I will have to agree that they were racist.

Not everybody who thinks illegal aliens are bad for the US, are Bush supporters. Personally, I dont think Bush does ENOUGH to protect our boarders. It is a fact that when illegal aliens come over here, they take jobs of Americans who ARE legal, and they do it for less money, effectivly cutting our LEGAL citizens off at the pass. You think this is right? Give me a break. If the Mexican people dont like thier country, then clean it up and quit coming to my country illegally and taking jobs that other real AMERICANS need! And dont give me that stupid argument that they only take the jobs we dont want to do. The fact is, the majority of them work in the construction industry. I worked as a carpenter framing houses for 9 years. The MOST I could ever hope to make was 9 US dollars an hour. You know why? Because there are HUNDREDS of illegal aliens living right here in Louisville Ky. that will do the same job for 7 dollars an hour. Another thing that pisses me off is the fact that when the illegals come over here, they dont bother to learn one iota of english. So now I am forced to learn a new language just to communicate with someone who is not even supposed to be here anyway?


I think you really need to step back and take a deep breath of reality. Just because someones life is crappy does not give them the right to illegally enter another country and make the legal citizens life crappy as well.

[edit on 1/29/05 by Kidfinger]

But, But., But.....I thought that Bush was trying to get more into the country, since their labor is so much cheaper......you mean, it's not that cheap after all??? Oh!!! Now I get it, it's cheaper for the BUSINESSES, who then run to the government whining about their taxes being too high to get tax cuts and other bribes to stay in the country....okay!!!

Still say if the danged business would do their moral duty and pay wages equilivalent to the cost of the basic necessities for them and their families at least we would be a heck lot better off!! And, gee, it would probably solve both problems....the demand for the illegals would diminish, since the businesses are paying a wage that we could live on and not below or near minimum we'd be happy to do the job, and well, even if they were to make it into the country, their income would be above the guidelines for the benefits, so the taxpayer wouldn't be paying it.....

This cheap labor (illegal or not) is coming with a pricetag that is strangling many of the state and local governments!

[edit on 29-1-2005 by dawnstar]

[edit on 29-1-2005 by dawnstar]

slank says:

”There is a slightly obscure provision of Nafta that allows a foreign corporation to sue any government(s) local or national that impinges on FUTURE profits for the amount of those profits.”

I reviewed most of the stuff about NAFTA I saw at www.i-b-t.net... , and I didn’t see anything there about "future profits". Will you please give us a citation?

If you think this is a Bush issue you are ignorant because you havent looked to see that most of the support in the southwest is libral Mexican Congress and Senate people who are most of the time Democrats. And as far as who will pick the feilds if they all go back we have plenty of fat welfare mothers with 5 kids and Drunks and druggies who do not work in this country and they are of all colors. Wake up people Mexico wants Northern Mexico back and eventualy we will let them.

Originally posted by Xibalba
America loves its illegal immigrants! How many of you legal American citizens are willing and thankful to work in fields picking crops, removing rocks? Working in factories 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week? All for dollars a day!

I have done all of that. For five dollars an hour in 113f heat.

Originally posted by factfinder38
If you think this is a Bush issue you are ignorant because you havent looked to see that most of the support in the southwest is libral Mexican Congress and Senate people who are most of the time Democrats. And as far as who will pick the feilds if they all go back we have plenty of fat welfare mothers with 5 kids and Drunks and druggies who do not work in this country and they are of all colors. Wake up people Mexico wants Northern Mexico back and eventualy we will let them.

I don't think it is a Bush issue, I think it is a morality/ spiritual issue. You can't live on dollars a day, or five dollars a day in this country. This is why the government is handing out aid to these people. The business don't feel the moral obligation to provide their employees and their families with the resources necessary to buy the necessities, nor are they willing to reduce the cost of these necessities. They are geared towards profits, and that is all they desire. And, a good part of society, afraid of higher costs for their goods and services, just accept that the low wages are beneficial to them, but then turn around and gripe about their taxes. They would rather have people begging for their livelihood. Only, then when they are seen on the streets, begging, with society doesn't want that, so they insist that the government create all these programs to feed and shelter them, because the find them so danged offensive, out on the streets, sleeping on park benches, whatever, and of course begging for food. And well, doesn't give such a warm fuzzy feeling when you who earns hundreds of thousands a dollars per year give a few bucks to those poor needy people.

Weather the people on these jobs are illegal immigrants working under the table, or american citizens who are at the present not working really doesn't make that much difference. The companies will be enjoying the profit from their work, while the taxpayer pays for their food, shelter, medical care and the like. Heck, good ole Newt did put many of these people back to work in the 90's, the result, just the childcare many of them incurred when they had to work costs more than their paycheck....so, the government steps in and helps them out.....so, we are really paying more now than then.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Another thing, legal aliens have to know english, right?

Actually, no they don't. There is no federal law requiring American citizens to speak English. There is nothing in the constitution about it, either. That's because the founding fathers toyed with the idea, and then rejected it, deciding that making a law about which language one must speak was limiting people's freedom of speech.

Personally, I think countries that are bilingual (that means that immigrant children should learn English well, and American children should learn another language well - most logically Spanish, but any second language is good) have an advantage over monolingual countries. I think Americans would be smart to create more bilingual schools to focus on the English language development of immigrant kids and the foreign language development of American kids, but again, this isn't an issue I care enough about to argue about. If the US wants to remain monolingual in a multilingual world, that certainly is her right. And I do agree that immigrants to any country are better off if they learn the language of the country they go to.

Immigrating is a difficult thing to do, and for those who are poor and facing people who will hate them from day one if their 2nd language isn't perfect, getting the courage to practice it with native speakers and finding the time and money to take classes isn't easy for adult immigrants. However, immigrant children in the US and elsewhere generally do just fine in developing the second language, although sometimes reading and writing skills suffer if their first language is weak as well.

I think it is interesting to realize how many Mexicans in Mexico speak English. Those who don't speak any at all English generally haven't had the opportunity to get a decent education. In Mexico, as in many places around the world, being completely monolingual is sort of like being unable to read. It is a sign of disadvantage and hardship. In the US, it is sometimes a source of pride. I think it is a strange thing to be proud of, but there are worse forms of ignorance in the world than monolingualism, I suppose.


[edit on 29-1-2005 by Estrella]

I thought this might interest you all, although it is slightly off topic.

From the site I posted the link to:

The truth is that there will probably always be immigrants in the U.S., coming from a wide variety of countries, who cannot speak English but whose grandchildren and great-grandchildren will end up being native English speakers. The reason for this is, again, the fact that it is much easier for children to learn another language than it is for adults. Adults who immigrate to the U.S., especially later in life, may never really become fluent in English. It's not that they don't want to speak English; it's simply much more difficult for them to learn it well. Their children, however, will be able to pick up English easily from their friends and the society around them. These second-generation immigrants, the children of the adult immigrants, are likely to be bilingual, speaking their parents' language at home and English at school and in the English-speaking community. When they grow up and have children of their own, those children - the third generation - will most likely speak only English, both at home with their bilingual parents and in the English-speaking community. This three-generation pattern has been repeating itself for many years, through wave after wave of immigrants. Many adults today who speak only English can remember grandparents and great-grandparents who spoke very little English, who instead spoke mostly Polish, Italian, German, or Swedish - the language of the country they grew up in. In sum, bilingualism isn't a danger either to the English language or to the bilingual speakers them- selves. On the contrary, there are many advantages to bilingualism, both for the individual and for the society as a whole. English enjoys tremendous dominance in the U.S. and in the world. But if history is any indication, there will always be people in the U.S. who cannot speak English - and they will have grandchildren who do.

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Estrella]

Originally posted by Estrella
Contary to the implications of some posts here, illegal Mexican immigrants are not coming to steal American jobs or destroy American culture. They are coming to put food on the table and get their kids a decent education.

Does that mean I should move to Canada to get free health, stealing resources from Canadian citizens?
Please, come to Michigan--one of three states with negative job growth. At some point, these lack of jobs for US citizens is gonna take food from MY table.
Who gives illegals the privilege of coming to this country for a free education? For citizens, our education isn't even free---most of us pay taxes (or rent that helps pay the landords property taxes).
I don't have kids. It's enough that I pay for citizens' education. I dam well don't relish paying for illegals, regardless of WHAT country they are from.

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As to the poster who said the US is throwing food in the ocean:
That really has no impact on an unemployed citizen, who is powerless to stop government waste.