Holy veil of Veronica in St Peter's at Rome is authentic, not a copy of Manoppello.

Come on guys, you squabbling over whether things are 'holy' and/or whether it is idolatry to pay reverence / homage or whatever to these ? Was Luther right and so forth, I think his main point was to strip the church of its immense wealth and bring the church closer to the common people, ergo, no lavish decoration, golden idols, priceless relics etc. just back to basics as in the beginning.

You go on spewing / writing quantum information all over the place with your personal 'area/awareness of effect' during your lifetime and you think you leave no mark? Lets say: A saints 'energy' touched something during his lifetime and it is revered therefore, so in a sense the item is 'holy', there is a ripple of his 'aura' there whether holy or not. Why would you otherwise for instance have a keepsake of a beloved one, are you saying you wouldn't remember the person otherwise? I know you are conditioned to view the universe the way you are, whether scientific / religious or otherwise but all people do such things regardless of culture. Why do some locations give you the creeps and others a sense of peace? The science guys say: these things do not exist and the religious say it is from god or satan. Then there is the whole parapsychology category to explore if you want to deep into such things.

Let the Catholics bow to their shroud in peace, no harm done I guess. Maybe a few of them benefit from the remnant aura in doing so .

a reply to: TatTvamAsi

Closer to the common people?, really, as common a the elector princes of Germany that followed him, or the Scandinavian, Dutch or British Kings? Don't make me laugh please.

Luther showed to almost any megalomaniac of his time how to join the religious and political power in the same hands, the most wished dream of anybody sick of uncontrollable ambition at that time in Europe.

What is in common between Henry the VIII th, and Oliver Crownwell Lord Protector of England?, with respect to Gustav Ist and Gustav IIITh of Sweden? apart to be among the worst Tyrants of History?

That all of them acted with absolute power and so total impunity of his terrible many crimes and genocides in the very steps of Martin Luther.

With all respect why you don't tell me also one of the Grimm brothers please?

Jesus Christ founded his church among fishers of the sea of Galilea, trully common people with no perigree what so ever, those were his Apostles, chosen to generate a church to remain for centuries, not any body coming from the European self proclaimed nobility.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Yah, most all religions would have us believe people, places and things are "Holy".

No, Jesus taught us nothing on earth was holy, we are all corrupted
The lie is from those who want us to worship things
Most religions, yes, ok...

Did you just sorta agree with me?

He (also 'said') we observe times, days and years, and set aside the laws of God by our traditions.

Merry christmas, pagan idol worshippers.

(backs away slowly)

No I didn't almost agree with you at all...

I did agree with you, just wanted to clarify the "most religions" part and how most Protestants don't do the idol thing, well some Protestants, ok, well a few

Anyway, not to cause a fuss, bless the. Catholics, I know many very Christian Catholics, just don't think the magic piece of cloth is anything but a piece of cloth that some people want others to worship, hence the thread

We all have our failings, Jesus taught love and respect to all, just not pieces of cloth

a reply to: Raggedyman

Oh, have a star.

originally posted by: St Udio
if that's a real picture of Jesus... then his image was more like a cartoon caricature than a human... it would be spooky to come face-to-face with that image of a face

I agree, I can't believe the stuff they have said about the face being peaceful and inspiring faith.. wtf?

BTW, the fabric is byssus, or sea silk.
en.wikipedia.org...




I mean, seriously????


You can't tell this was painted on? There are greens and pinks in it.



Furthermore the Gospels say that not a bone of Jesus body was broken, if the nose if crooked it is broken.... and he's balding!

Would a piece of cloth made from marine silk be a good absorber of sweat and blood?

And the teeth would not have made an imprint.

I have had an interest in this thing for years simply because my grandmother and her ancestry is from that town.

A blog about the Manoppello cloth


Another interesting post I made about a priest that was connected to the "holy face"
The bilocation of padre Domenico da Cese

a reply to: Cinrad

Well, at least this is a reply that has really something to do with one of the two relics that are matter of discussion in the thread.

This is a thread open for a discussion about the research of two archaeological objects and it's possible connection with the historic Jesus Christ, not about religious beliefs or conflicts among churches.

The Shroud of Turin shows also a deviation of the nose that clearly suggest a fracture, and the gospels tell us of a huge strike that he received in the face while being judged by the Sanhedrin with the cane of the supreme priest.

Now, he is not really bald at all, the line of the hair is pretty visible, chances are also that the original imprint was used by an artist as an outline to carryout posterior retouches, as we know it happened with the image of the lady of Guadalupe.

I need to remind the readers that Manoppello is here mentioned just in its connection with the Veronica Veil, that is located officially in one of the four lateral chambers of St Peters Cathedral at the Vatican since medieval times.

That is the most enigmatic relic of Christ, since there are no photographic close ups of it, although certainly many copies of it, that is the real topic here.

All the photos we have in the web of it are taken distantly from many feet, when annually is showed to the public from a balcoon the good Fridays.

Since 2011 an amateur scientist Mr. Vincenzo Giovanni Ruello has carried out computer analysis on infrared pictures of the Roman Veronica using statistical image processing techniques and he claim to have found the same kind of 3D information that was detected in the shroud of Turin.

Please read

www.veronica-veil.com...

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

Dear Readers,

This is a reference of the origin of the Veronica Veil that was brought to Rome, not to Manoppello, in times of Emperor Tiberius:

The Avenging of the Saviour:
In the late 7th Century (680 A.D.) mention is made of the
name of Veronica and, for the first time, the Legend of the
imprinted cloth which healed the Emperor Tiberius is
outlined. The work is also referred to in the Cura
Sanitatis Tiberii - The Cure of the Emperor Tiberius and
identifies Veronica as the woman with the issue of blood as
well as mentioning the imprinted cloth. (Matthew, Mark and
Luke).
In the Avenging of the Saviour we read:
"…and another woman named Veronica, who suffered
twelve years from an issue of blood, and came up to
Him behind and touched the fringe of His garment, was
healed."
Later in the text we read:
"Then they made a search about the face or portrait of
Jesus, how they might find it. And they found a woman
named Veronica who had it."
"Then they made a search with great diligence to seek
the portrait of the Lord; and the found a woman named
Veronica who had the portrait of the Lord. Then the
Emperor Tiberius said to Velosianus: How hast thou
it?”
The story goes on to say that:
"Velosianus spread out the cloth of gold on which the
portrait of the Lord had been imprinted. The Emperor
Tiberius saw it...and his flesh was cleansed ...and
all the blind, the lepers, the lame, the dumb, the
deaf and those possessed by various diseases, who
were there present, were healed and cured and
cleansed."
From all this we see that the Gospels talk of the woman
with the issue of blood. Eusebius mentions her again in
325. The Acts of Pilate around 380 gives her the name
Veronica (true image) and the Avenging of the Saviour (680
A.D.) identifies her as Veronica who had the imprinted
cloth with Jesus' face.

Please check

www.shroud.com...

There is a huge distinction in between this veil which history is extremely well documented and the one at the volto santo church in the town of Manoppello which has tremendous lack of records and it is not clear how and when it arrived supposedly from Palestine.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light

The Shroud of Turin shows also a deviation of the nose that clearly suggest a fracture, and the gospels tell us of a huge strike that he received in the face while being judged by the Sanhedrin with the cane of the supreme priest.

Then the shroud of Turin can't be an imprint of Jesus if the nose is fractured.

John 19:32-36 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the two men crucified with Jesus. 33But when they came to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they didn’t break his legs. 34One of the soldiers, however, pierced his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out. 35(This report is from an eyewitness giving an accurate account. He speaks the truth so that you also can believe.) 36These things happened in fulfillment of the Scriptures that say, “Not one of his bones will be broken,” 37and “They will look on the one they pierced.”

Jesus replaced the sacrificial lamb

Exodus 12:46"It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones.

BTW, that bit about the rod is from the prophets, not the gospels.

Micah 5:1
Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

The gospels tell us that:

Matthew 27:29-31 And they twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on His head. They put a staff in His right hand and knelt down before Him to mock Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30And they spat on Him, and took the staff and struck Him on the head repeatedly. 31After they had mocked Him, they removed the robe and put His own clothes back on Him. Then they led Him away to crucify Him.

And earlier:

Mark 14:65
Some of them began to spit on him. They blindfolded him and kept hitting him with their fists and telling him, "Prophesy!" Even the servants took him and slapped him around.

Matthew 26:67 Then they began to spit in Jesus’ face and beat him with their fists. And some slapped him, jeering, “Prophesy to us, you Messiah! Who hit you that time?”

John 18:22Then one of the Temple guards standing nearby slapped Jesus across the face. “Is that the way to answer the high priest?” he demanded.23Jesus replied, “If I said anything wrong, you must prove it. But if I’m speaking the truth, why are you beating me?”
John 19:1 Then Pilate had Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip. 2The soldiers wove a crown of thorns and put it on his head, and they put a purple robe on him. 3“Hail! King of the Jews!” they mocked, as they slapped him across the face.

a reply to: Cinrad

First at all, you need to see the linguistic barrier here present, the word that is translated as bone from the old testament aramaic of the original Exodus author, after being cited by St Matthew or St John in Greek, may not coincide at all with the one our modern medecine consider as it, our current medical terms, we must recognize that possibility.

What this means? That the nose structure could not refer to the ones referred by the old prophecy cited by St Matthew.

Did the knowledge of anatomy three thousand
years ago consider the existence of any bones in the nose as we know now?

Second, there is the anatomical consideration involved, the bones of the nose are mounted and also joined through cartilage, and a deviation of the nose does not mean necesarily a fracture of the hard tissue.

What it matters is that none of the so many structural large bones showed in the shroud is broken. How we are so sure of this?

Well, since years ago researchers that have examined deeply the burial cloth have found that the image reveal also inner structures, like an X ray plate, something that only radiation can produce, no photographic technique can create such effect.

Finally, the prophecy is given in terms of a comparison in between two different anatomical organisms, that in spite of the resemblance as mammals, have their own particular characteristics,

How similar or different is the nose of a lamb to the one of a man? They don't coincide completely, that is pretty evident.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Additionally to the reasons already explained in my previous reply, there is also a ritual consideration that can be even stronger than anything else.

The easter lamb can't have broken bones because it is inside them, in their medula, that are located the generative cells of all the blood, and Leviticus as well as Deuteronomy forbid to eat meat with blood.

Clearly, the small human nose bones don't contain any medula at all, so they are completely excluded of that requirement.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

Does this stuff actually still work on people? I guess it does, but I'm suspecting a lot less than a couple of centuries ago:

Too bad they cut-off the part about relics, see below at 20:24 and especially Percy at 20:53 reminiscent of some things I think I noticed on this thread, especially the first few lines with a similar follow-up; but I didn't read everything very carefully:

a reply to: The angel of light

Ever wonder as to the shape of those bishops mitres?

"Archaeologists discover 7,000-year-old sex cult objects in Israel"
freethoughtnation.com...

They found remains of a village and “a large number of pottery vessels indicative of a highly developed pottery industry, flint tools, stone objects, as well as a number of unique artistic artifacts, among them a phallic figurine and a palette on which female genitals are schematically etched – these symbols also represented the fertility of the earth.”… A preliminary analysis of the animal bones discovered at the site shows that pigs were a principal staple in the diet of the inhabitants. Despite the biblical tribal origins stories, the evidence points to the Israelites as emerging from the native Canaanite/Amorite population, which had been engaged in phallic worship for millennia and whose predecessors did not have a taboo against pigs, obviously.

Biblical Phallic References In any event, there are many elements of phallic worship within the Bible as well, although they are shrouded by language subtleties both in the original Hebrew and more modern languages. (See, e.g., Gen 24:2, 9; 47:29) For example, at Genesis 24:2-3, 9 we read: And Abraham said to his servant, the oldest of his house, who had charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth…”… So the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and swore to him concerning this matter. The Hebrew word generally translated as “thigh” or “loins” is ירך yarek, which can be defined as “outer thigh” but also refers to the “seat of procreative power,” referring to the male genitalia. Testifying in Antiquity Phallic cult object from Northern Israel at at Kfar HaHoresh, c. 6,750-8,500 BCE (Photo by Professor Nigel Goring-Morris)In antiquity, important oaths were sworn by men shaking each other’s penises, which is what we are looking at with the stories of Abraham, et al., giving testimony or testifying by holding each other’s “thighs.” In this regard, the words “testify,” “testament” or “testimony,” etc., come from the Latin root testis, which means “one who gives evidence” and “a testicle.”

www.livescience.com...

Some remarkable traces of Stone Age life were unearthed recently in northern Israel, including a pit of burned bean seeds and a carving of a penis that's more than 6,000 years old, the Israeli Antiquities Authority (IAA) reported. Archaeologists are excavating at Ahihud Junction ahead of the construction of a new Israeli railroad line to the city of Karmiel.

Its all about reproduction and control

a reply to: The angel of light

I say this since it is well known that Satan, as well as Baal, Belzebuh among other impure spirits, reject holy objects

You obviously haven't looked at the Jehovah Baal connection? Yep that's right


ahayahyashiyaisraelitesunite.wordpress.com...

So you might now be wondering: What about the name Yah, then? This is the name that is found in Psalms with the phrase rendered: “hallelujah”, right? Wrong. What you didn’t know is that the word hallelujah has a meaning unknown to those who are not familiar with the Hebrew or Arabic tongues. In fact, the name Yah is derived from the four-letter YHWH (Yahweh), and according to the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, the name Yah means: My Ba’al. You can read it for yourself, here. You will see as you scroll down that Yah is another symbolic name for Ba’al and it also represents the Egyptian Moon god.

a reply to: whereislogic

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I don't care if you are drinking while posting comedy in serious threads, or about what absurd upside down concordances are you referring to, the only point I see clearly here is that your posts have nothing to do with the discussion topic:
The topic of this thread is:
The comparison and relationship of the two holy relics of Christ, the Veil of Veronica in the Vatican, and the Volto Santo at Manoppello.

You are trying with them to revive previous attacks that were promoting verbal bullying and religious hatred, boycotting the thread.

It is pretty obvious your goal, and the one of the other people following your action, either bringing here cheap looklike Mr Bean comedy or fallic cult, this is twisting of the thread into other topics not even distantly connected to it.

It is incredible that your audacy does not stop in that, but now you are entering in this thread to try to steal attention to your own bizarre sources and try to convince us that the Devil has something to do with God.

What are you thinking? That I am not aware of what is allowed and forbidden to do in ATS and in particular in posting?

This shows no respect at all for the contents of the forum, as well as for rules of decorum and the reputation of ATS.

I am reporting all these irregularities to the Moderator and owner of the site, I have ten years posting responsibly interesting threads and no body is going to boycott them in this cynical way without being properly stoped.

If you are interested to lecture others about fallic cult or strange theories on ancient costumes or rites of pagan people mentioned in the Bible open your own threads, don't use other topics threads to promote them.

Mr Bean or anybody look like him is possibly welcome in the forum of Jokes, but I'm sure Not here.


Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light
It's historical context presented with comedy regarding the topic of relics including the Shroud of Turin (or any other such shrouds or holy veils) that someone else mentioned as well without a similar exaggerated reaction from you. It presents a variety of different optional reactions, behaviour and opinions regarding the topic of authenticity at the times I described in the 2nd video (3 characters, 3 different reactions, or one could argue 2).

I don't think ATS has a rule that says something like:

"Thou shalt not dare mention even the possibility of religious scams involving relics or historical religious scams involving relics in response to a thread made by The angel of light about one or more particular relics."

But perhaps we'll find out if it's one of those unwritten rules applied on ATS to keep out the stuff that might wake some people up to alternate ways of thinking or approaching a particular subject or source of information.

Not to attack you or anything or complain or to throw up a red herring or anyting to discredit you, but odd choice of name though...
2 Corinthians 11:14:
And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.

Context:
12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

a reply to: whereislogic
Exaggerated reaction?

This is a serious space of discussion of a key Christian archaeology subject, not a comedy one to post cheap jokes of entertainers, such lack of substance materials is disrespectful.

Thats quite a way to defend what it is unexcusable, by coming in addition with estremely poor syllogisms that are also clearly off topic.

Anybody that really uses logic to evaluate your propositions can see that the fact that somebody has power to impersonate even an Angel of God, that is what the Apostle you are trying to quote says, does not mean that all angels of God are really that evil power in disguise.

Your miserable statement pretend to use a one way implication in the other way around, when even if it would be a sufficient condition does not always mean is a necessary one.

Go and study again basic principles of philosophy or logic and also ethics before to come here with another off topic reply that is so poorly built.

Of course your post does not contribute at all in the discussion of the two relics that constitute the topic here but is a very bold personal attack that makes mockery and violates rules of decorum of ATS.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: The angel of light
...or indeed the Turin Shroud which I think we both believe authentic is the important matter,...

originally posted by: St Udio
this image is a primitive art piece... in no way or fashion comparable to the 'Shroud of Turin" icon/relic

Perhaps the most famous feature of Turin is the shroud that some believe is the winding-sheet in which Christ’s body was wrapped. A travel guidebook explains: “The most famous—and most dubious—holy relic of them all is kept in Turin’s duomo [cathedral].” It is permanently exhibited in one of the duomo’s chapels, locked in an airtight, bulletproof glass case filled with an inert gas. The book goes on to say: “In 1988, however, the myth of the shroud was exploded: a carbon-dating test showed that it dates back no farther than the 12th century.”

Source: Milan and Turin—Delightful Cities to Visit: Awake!—2001

Especially St Udio's reaction reminded me of the scene with Percy (and his reaction). That's what I was talking about before. I only want to help and be honest with the Percy's of this world. I can't satisfy the sensitivities or feigned sensitivities and outrage (if that's not too strong a word) of the Baldrick/Blackadder types all the time; even though I try to avoid giving a justification for offense or accusations of being offensive, disrespectful, presenting cheap jokes, and not contributing anything useful in relation to the thread topics perhaps only because the possible considerations are not to someone's liking because it's a little too beneficial to the mind? 2 Timothy 4:3, 4

a reply to: whereislogic

Definitively apart of the fact that you don't have manners at all, you like to show how far stubborness can go its way over any decorum consideration.

First at all, this is not really a thread about nothing different than the holy faces of Christ, second you need to update yourself in topics that are related although are not the topic here.

For instance concerning the shroud, that is not really our topic, The 1988 C14 testing has been challenged for about no less than a dozen of posterior studies, like the analysis of variance carried out by Universities of Pisa and Bolonia, that proven the data collected by the 3 laboratories is not consistent at all, can not have such a variance in between distinct dates.

There are at least two teams if scientists have also showed that the sample taken was not representative of the real original material of the cloth, must likely be of posterior repairs.

Besides that, Garza Valdes showed that there is huge contamination with bioplastic material, that caused a dating error in Egyptian mummies upto 2000 years. His findings have been validating by Russian archaeologists.

There is a previous C14 test carried privately and without authorization of the Vatican in 1982 that dated the same cloth in the time of Christ. This was found in 2011 by an investigation of Italian Journalists that also found the official testing of 1988 was plagued of grave irregularities and violations of basic dating Protocols.

If you are interested in the Shroud please refer to La Notte della Sindoni, by F. Saracino, P.Conti. F.Falla. M.Alonso.P.Bollone, G.Fanti., a documentary produced by RAI.

It is easier to find people trusting the Warren Comission Report of JFK assassination, than still believing in the accuracy and fairness of the C14 of 1988 on the Shroud.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

I have not been drinking and am on topic. You wilfully mislead people by implying that the a relic is not an idol, and veneration is not worship. To claim such you would have to be in the mind's of every worshiper at any given moment; a claim you probably wouldn't attempt.

To say that procreation and sexual activity has not been utilized as a method of control over the populace is to ignore hundreds of years of the RC Church activities.

and no body is going to boycott them

Do you know what "boycott" mean's? I am sure that what you are attempting is censorship with threatening to report this to moderators.
The indoctrination runs deep; are you sure you're not so far gone in your veneration that you cannot enter into debate?
As to Baal and the Caananite connection, it's there in black and white.

a reply to: The angel of light

to your own bizarre sources and try to convince us that the Devil has something to do with God.

Which god are you talking about by the way? The jewish YWWH that morphed with Jupiter to be adopted by the Roman Empire and made into a state religion by the Pagan Emperor Constantine?