Holy veil of Veronica in St Peter's at Rome is authentic, not a copy of Manoppello.

The peace of God to all that belong to the Light,
Dear Readers

A reply to another thread in which somebody was endorsing the thesis, so supported in our days by the followers of the devotion to the holy face of Manoppello, that such a piece of almost transparent cloth is the veronica , made me think it is important to recall the miracle of the Vatican, a transfiguration of the Roman Veronica, of 1849, one that was witnessed by thousands of pilgrims al day sight.

Please check

www.holyfacedevotion.com...
Here it is the account of these supernatural miracle:

Sister Marie of St. Peter prayed and labored unceasingly to bring the Lord’s wishes to fulfillment. She was assisted in this Work by a holy layman, Leo Dupont. Their efforts met with either indifference or great opposition. It was not until after Sister Marie’s death (1848) that the Church finally gave its approval. It began in a remarkable way.

Six months after her death, Pope Pius IX, who was living in forced exile from Rome, ordered public prayers to be offered in all the churches of Rome to implore God’s mercy on the pontifical states. Thereupon for three days, the True Wood of the Cross and Veronica’s Veil were exposed for public veneration at St. Peter’s Basilica.

Although the impression on the Veil had become so faint as to be scarcely visible, and not visible at all through another silk veil which was used to cover this true relic of Veronica’s Veil, on the third day of its exposition, the Divine Face of Jesus appeared distinctly, as if living, and was illumined by a soft light. The features assumed a death-like hue, and the eyes, deep sunken, wore an expression of great pain. This vision lasted for three hours and was seen by all present.....

Please read:
www.carmelitemonastery.org...

This public event gives us a so important historic record in favor of the authenticity of the Veronica relic stored in the St Peter Roman Basilica until our days.

One of the great distinctions in between the image transfigurated of the Roman Veronica w.r.t. Manoppello is that neither the eyes nor the mouth are in the same position:

In the Veronica the eyes are gently, relaxed and naturally closed, also the lips are of a mouth naturally closed without effort, clearly of a Jesus that is tired in his viacruxis, but Not already dead, something very clear in the thousands of certified ,touched to the original, lithographic or painted copies that exist in the world until our days.

In Manoppello instead the eyes are exaggeratedly open, the mouth also open and the face is defigurated after a lot of inflamation of soft tissues, what suggest a corpse rigidity, so probably an impression goten after his very death.

So what this means about Manoppello?

There are two clear possibilities here,

1)that it is either the Holy Mandylion sent by Jesus himself to the King Adghar of Edessa, the leper, to facilitate his healing, or,

2) that it is the so famous Kamulia that seems to be a present given by Jesus to his mother, and brought by her to Turkey.

Thanks for your attention, let us open this thread to discuss the multiple holy faces of Christ that have been kept intact until our days.

The Angel of Lightness

I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Peace and lightness in Christ

a reply to: The angel of light

I was not aware of this great sign, thank you, I did not reply to your answer on the other thread because I am not an expert and far from as versed in these matter's as you yourself are.

As it is a recorded miracle that must have been witnessed by many thousand's and given the Vatican's tradition of very strong and thorough investigation into these matter's I accept that the lord sent a sign through this relic.

I still DO believe in the validity of the Mannappello artifact though and think your explanation for what it may be is very interesting, it did however appear after the pope had fled the protestant army and one argument which proposed it as the veil pointed to the historical time line, the possibility that the pope would not have left it to be looted and destroyed by the German protestant army and that it would therefore have been smuggled or carried out of Rome to a safe location.


One thing you have to remember is out Lord said Faith Can Move Mountain's, Faith in God, in Jesus and not in an icon even one such as the Mannappello image or that of the image in Rome or indeed the Turin Shroud which I think we both believe authentic is the important matter, to argue about the relic is therefore not of true import and over the century's too much innocent blood has been spilled and too many killed by fanatic's whom abused the word of God to justify there action's over such argument's.


I am not disputing your point though and it is important to me to hear this as I was unfamiliar with the miracle which show's that the faith fo those that worshiped on that day was endorsed by the Lord himself in that miraculous sign.

a reply to: Raggedyman

The mistake here is that you are judging this from a perspective that is immersed in the personal obssessions of Idolatry coming from the mind of Martin Luther.

This German monk was a theologian that independently of his mental condition, it seems he became fundamentalist due to a compulsive study without rest of the scriptures, was excommunicated by the Pope for supporting Heretical ideas.

I suggest you to consider other points of view to get a more objective opinion on the topic.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Yah, most all religions would have us believe people, places and things are "Holy".

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Peace and lightness in Christ

Wrong, the Ark of the Covenant will be Revealed before the final judgement and of course the Lord would allow it not because it encourages Idol worship as these are NOT idol's, they are Icon's and Relic's which is something very different indeed.

An icon is NOT a God to those that worship through it but an Idol IS a God to those that Worship IT or it is dedicated to a false God (that should discern them for you) which amount's therefore to the same thing (an icon to a false God is no different to an Idol of a false god as they are both False) such as for example the Kaaba and it's infamous Vulva shaped black stone with may be a relic of the pagan past of the city and be the idol of the Moon Godess they worshipped (interesting as Allah is actually the pagan Moon God and god of chaos and destruction in other word's the devil).

Here do some reading on the Iconoclasm.
en.wikipedia.org...

In a world were most people could not read the CHRISTIAN Icon (Which is most definitely NOT an idol) served a very important purpose as a veritable angel of God, all they had to go on was the word of a missionary but once they could see the representation's of the event's they could then grasp onto something (metaphorically) to anchor there minds on as they learned about the true religion.

During the Iconoclasm a two side's of the orthodoxy split and warred in a war of heresy and counter heresy each accusing the other, one side set out to destroy all icon's AND RELIC's and the other set out to protect them, the former of course sound suspiciously like the later Muhammadan's and there corrupt ideology and even more like the ISIS terrorists of today AND they were thankfully defeated.

My mother's aunt died but my mother put her cross in her hand as she was dying, she went back to see her some time later before they buried her and they had left the cross in her hand which was still pink and fleshy but her other hand looked almost skeletal under her skin and the rest of her was grey.

Believe what you will though.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Raggedyman

The mistake here is that you are judging this from a perspective that is immersed in the personal obssessions of Idolatry coming from the mind of Martin Luther.

This German monk was a theologian that independently of his mental condition, it seems he became fundamentalist due to a compulsive study without rest of the scriptures, was excommunicated by the Pope for supporting Heretical ideas.

I suggest you to consider other points of view to get a more objective opinion on the topic.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

Indeed?

I am judging it by the amount of idols and how they are worshiped by Catholics across their whole empire

As for Martin Luther, he didn't go far enough
Every country Catholicism has touched has been poisoned to the bone

Kept their own people ignorant for millennia, Luther educated people, taught them to read and exposed the Catholic lie of 1500 years

You are not smart enough jesuit

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Yah, most all religions would have us believe people, places and things are "Holy".

No, Jesus taught us nothing on earth was holy, we are all corrupted
The lie is from those who want us to worship things
Most religions, yes, ok...

originally posted by: LABTECH767

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Peace and lightness in Christ

Wrong, the Ark of the Covenant will be Revealed before the final judgement and of course the Lord would allow it not because it encourages Idol worship as these are NOT idol's, they are Icon's and Relic's which is something very different indeed.

An icon is NOT a God to those that worship through it but an Idol IS a God to those that Worship IT or it is dedicated to a false God (that should discern them for you) which amount's therefore to the same thing (an icon to a false God is no different to an Idol of a false god as they are both False) such as for example the Kaaba and it's infamous Vulva shaped black stone with may be a relic of the pagan past of the city and be the idol of the Moon Godess they worshipped (interesting as Allah is actually the pagan Moon God and god of chaos and destruction in other word's the devil).

Here do some reading on the Iconoclasm.
en.wikipedia.org...

In a world were most people could not read the CHRISTIAN Icon (Which is most definitely NOT an idol) served a very important purpose as a veritable angel of God, all they had to go on was the word of a missionary but once they could see the representation's of the event's they could then grasp onto something (metaphorically) to anchor there minds on as they learned about the true religion.

During the Iconoclasm a two side's of the orthodoxy split and warred in a war of heresy and counter heresy each accusing the other, one side set out to destroy all icon's AND RELIC's and the other set out to protect them, the former of course sound suspiciously like the later Muhammadan's and there corrupt ideology and even more like the ISIS terrorists of today AND they were thankfully defeated.

My mother's aunt died but my mother put her cross in her hand as she was dying, she went back to see her some time later before they buried her and they had left the cross in her hand which was still pink and fleshy but her other hand looked almost skeletal under her skin and the rest of her was grey.

Believe what you will though.

They went to war over things, things...
How sad

a reply to: Raggedyman

Once again they are NOT idol's.

Icon's can and do serve a good purpose, Catholic's do not Worship them they worship what they mean, they do believe though that they can be blessed and serve as angel's not actually as god and they would never worship THEM only God).

Your opionon of catholicism AND orthodoxy in general which is OLDER and more TRUE than your later reimagining of Christianity based on the action's of a disgruntled former Jesuit priest (Who did have a valid point about spreading the gospel) and the LATER interpretations not of him but of other's whom came after is wrong.

There have been evil in both camp's and of course Good as well but I ask you who gain's by dividing the house of God, who is served by Causing the house to become divided - NOT Jesus.

Angels' are Messengers, they can be being's or even strange seemingly chance occurance, there are the angel's whom are being's such as Michael, Raphael, Gabriel (the true one not the devil's gabriel),Uriel, Sealtiel, Barachiel etc and there are the Angels as viewed from the Jewish tradition which can also include sign's seen as from God just to clarify that for you.


BUT you have a very powerful point, THOUGH SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, of course Christ said "I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY THE LAW BUT TO FULLFILL IT" (Fullfill has several translational argument's and may mean to complete or perfect it).

By that point the making of image's is forbidden by the original ten commandment's and yet it is also one of the oldest christian tradition's, those image include the sing of the cross carved on stone and in the empire the sing of the fish based on the Anagram of Christ's name in Greek placed on places of secret worship during the imperial persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I don't believe Christ would allow anything to be kept intact because it would encourage idol worship
Something the Catholics are prone to do

Yah, most all religions would have us believe people, places and things are "Holy".

No, Jesus taught us nothing on earth was holy, we are all corrupted
The lie is from those who want us to worship things
Most religions, yes, ok...

Did you just sorta agree with me?

He (also 'said') we observe times, days and years, and set aside the laws of God by our traditions.

Merry christmas, pagan idol worshippers.

(backs away slowly)

a reply to: LABTECH767

Yeah
It was all nice and sweet till the last paragraph
True Christianity did not die out, it survived in North Africa without Catholicism, research that
I am a Christian, I don't respond to the Judaic 10 commandments, the fish, the cross
I don't do idols, sorry

I am a follower of Jesus, not Luther, your pope, your pictures that bleed, your rags with images, your magic.
Jesus, His message of love, no less.
I don't stand for occultism either

a reply to: Raggedyman

Actually TRUE christianity if there is such a thing alive today is actually Syriac Orthodoxy, check it out, the other christian church - one of the oriential church's as they were named by the western church and in the case of the Syriac orthodoxy they still hold there mass in Aramaic even today which is believed to be the language Jesus probably spoke as it was the common language of the day (Hebrew also was used but was the temple language and the language of the scroll's).

The oldest church was probably destroyed by the Roman's in 59AD but since the Syriac claim's descent from it and being founded not by Peter or by Paul it is actually the continuation of the Hebraic christian church.

Though fiercely independent (half having schizmed and joined the catholic Church within the past two century's - they traditionally hate the orthodox church because Constantine kept putting his nose into THERE business and tried to force the empire upon them through religious mean's though Syria was an independant christian kingdom and the other half now almost eradicated by ISIS) there catachism and tradition's, belief's and history (kept independently) are almost identical in every respect to those of the Catholic and Orthodox faith and of course they KEEP ICON's.
They are older than either the Coptic (Second oldest church) or the Constantine imperial Church (which forcibly unified the disparate church's within the empire) and definitely older than the Ethiopian orthodox church or the Armenian Church, they are also devoted to the holy mother.

syrianorthodoxchurch.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
orthodoxwiki.org...(Syriac)

But True Christian's can be found in ALL church's, they are defined by how much the love and emulate our Lord, as for the emulation I probably fail there.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Occultism is sorcery, non of us stand for that even those of us whom have suffered demonic influence in our live's, the only thing that matter's is that you have faith in christ and NOT an Idol you are correct on that point and that you try your best to live up to him, I fail on that point and many do in this world.

Those copt's whom were beheaded for there faith ARE with our lord NOW and will come with him when he does return along with all the other's beheaded and persecuted for his name sake.

To be a christian though and I fail.

Love God above all else, love your neighbor as yourself.
Love your enemy's and bless them don't curse them.
Do unto other's (including total strangers) as you would have done unto you.
Don't judge other's as Christ is the Judge.
Forgive all wrong's done to you (the one most of us stumble over and simply try but fail again and again).

I see you as my family now by the way though I am being selfish as it is because you identify yourself as a christian and I am supposed as a christian to regard all mankind as my family.

a reply to: intrptr

Besides the fact that these attacks to the thread are all actually off topic, I think trying to deviate it into other issues, to claim that images devotion is idolatry is to be possesed by a demon, in such a way that exorcism it is urgently required.

I say this since it is well known that Satan, as well as Baal, Belzebuh among other impure spirits, reject holy objects of any kind as soon as they presented to them, that is part of any good exorcist practice.

That claim is so absurd that Jesus himself compared his image on the cross, that he jnew it was going to be used along the centuries, with the serpent that Moises made in bronze in the Sinai dessert to heal the Hebrews of the bites of those animals, following the commands of God.

King Solomon was ordered by God father himself to keep the original.tablets of the law in an Ark with images of Angels at the top, so it is very clear God knows we need of symbols, that is the way the human psychology works to excite faith and help us to feel identified with something.

I forgive your blasphemies against me on Christmas day, Thanks to call me Jesuit, I take that as a compliment, but let me ask who is going to forgive you the blasphemy a the Holy Ghost?

Devotion to icons or images is accepted by all trully apostolic churches, not only the Roman one, there are Christian images depicted in all underground catacombs of the Roman Empire, any professional archaelogist know that.

Don't expect is going to be Martin Luther, or any other pseudo self proclaimed reformer, in partucular he is not in position to help anyone in the place he is now.

Thanks

Merry Christmas

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

I really like the article. It is always uplifting to read of eyewitness accounts of this nature. I have always been deeply interested in anything about Veronica. Thank you for the post.

Just looked at [en.wikipedia.org...#/media/File:Volto-Santo_01.jpg the Manoppello image], and, ah....no.

a reply to: The angel of light

Things aren't "holy". This is materialism (idol worship) disguised. Jesus warned about that.

Exorcize the dogma from your mind.

originally posted by: Aleister
Just looked at [en.wikipedia.org...#/media/File:Volto-Santo_01.jpg the Manoppello image], and, ah....no.

I concur...
this image is a primitive art piece... in no way or fashion comparable to the 'Shroud of Turin" icon/relic

wiki says this in part:

... proponents of the painted image theory said the image (and other related copies) is typical of representations of the human form from a given period, and is imperfectly executed,

with numerous stylised features, showing that the artist either did not understand, or did not wish to comply with the basic principles of proportion that apply to realistic renderings of the human form

apart from some features, such as the crooked nose, which might show the beaten, bruised and human Christ that people would expect to see in an actual divine image.[11][12]

A further objection, advanced by Ian Wilson, is that because the image does not bear a familial resemblance to known copies (see above), it cannot be the version of the Veronica that was venerated in the Middle Ages.[2...

?? can the broken glass fragments in the cloth be analized as to date ...

if that's a real picture of Jesus... then his image was more like a cartoon caricature than a human... it would be spooky to come face-to-face with that image of a face... no wonder the Romans beat & crucified him so badly, he was a freak/alien




for a better report, news, info about the veil of veronica... which actually supports the shroud-of-Turin image as both representing the Jesus person...the veil pre-crucifixition the shroud post death & burial


see: www.veronica-veil.com...

a reply to: St Udio

Well, what I know is that Manoppello image is stamped on a kind of gauze or muslin made from a material produced by a marine mollusc so it is traslucid.

Now, to judge the esthetic quality of the image is necessary to realize that it corresponds to the face of a man with his face absolutely deformed by the so many punches he received.

We know from the gospels accounts that onJesus face there were many physical tortures already inflicted before was executed, so it is unrealistic to expect a beautiful top model looklike face appearing in a genuine relic, this is consistent with what we see in the Holy Shroud by the way.

The Shroud of Turin a shows a corpse after to be enbalmed, so treated with medicinal herbs at least for three days, those are spices that are very effective to reduce and even restore a lot the normal phisionomy of extremely swolen tissues, even after death.

So of course the aspect of the imprint in the cloth may differ dramatically of anyone reflecting the condition immediately after death. Manoppello could show a Christ in the moment it was put in the tomb, while the shroud what it was left after resurrection.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness