Who is at fault if you leave your door wide open?

originally posted by: SRPrime

originally posted by: rickymouse
Well, if you leave your picnic table in your yard and someone walks off with it and is caught, they are guilty of theft.


Stealing is stealing, whether your doors are locked or not. If you want to keep the honest man honest, lock your doors. Professional criminals will get in if the door is locked or not..

Well I mean, if your house is wide open, there is no evidence of a break in, it's going to make it awfully hard for the home owner to prove a theft, isn't it? The police will not be able to do anything, and they will tell you flat out that your mistake was leaving your house wide open. It's your fault there is no evidence of a break in, because they didn't have to break in. For all the police know, you took your TV and your jewlery, moved it to your bothers house, claimed it was stolen, filed an insurance claim, and bought a second TV and doubled up your jewelry game -- which would make YOU a criminal. The thing is, if your house is wide open, unless someone is witness to the robbery, the police aren't going to believe you, and if they do -- they are going to tell you how stupid you are.

If the thief were to get caught, yeah -- he'd be prosecuted, but the idea here is -- if your house is wide open, he's not going to get caught unless he's physically seen and identified leaving the premises. That pretty much makes it the home owners fault. If the doors were locked, there would be evidence of a break and enter and possibly DNA/Finger Prints what ever, which could potentially pin down the thief.

Moral of this story is, if you leave your house wide open, and stuff gets stolen -- you aren't going to get it back and the thief isn't going to be caught. Now ya know -- if the thief had to break a window to get in, someone might be alerted to that, increases the chances of the theif being caught, as well as the thief leaving evidence of the theft.

If you leave your house wide open, you are absolutely Negligent. I don't think this can even be argued.

I never said the Thief isn't responsible for the theft. I said you are responsible for making the theft easy, and therefor more likely for it to happen. The onus is equally on you in that circumstance.

In a small town area like I live in, the loot will surface somewhere and they will get caught. If I come in from the back on my property and see someone in the house, they are in major trouble. I usually take my pistol with me when working in the back, there are bears and other big animals around my house, I might need to scare them away.

I had some kids down by our road having a party one day. My wife and I were on the porch and one of the kids said, what can they do, there are many of us. I grabbed my desert eagle and 30 30 and started walking down there, they saw it and gravel was flying as they pulled the three or four cars from the clearing. I wouldn't have shot them unless they pulled a gun, just their cars. The teenagers would have to explain to their parents why there were bullet holes in their cars. They never bothered us again. I like their attitude as they left, Oh F*** he has a gun. I only had two clips of nine 357s and seven shells in the chamber of the rifle, There were only around ten of them. I can trim twigs of a tree with my rifles.

They left, that is the important part and I did not have to bother the cops. All you have to do is show authority most times.

a reply to: yuppa

In Dearborn here the Police have a public awareness program called "Lock it or Lose it"...to encourage people to not give the bad guys an inch of opportunity by keeping your vehicles and homes secure and locked at all times.

1. So...if you live in a tent in the woods and then go hiking 20 miles, come back and your stuff is gone?

2. They always tell women to watch their purses while shopping. If they don't, someone could grab it and go.

Both questions are answered by realizing both thefts are "opportunity"...though both could have happened anyway.

MS

originally posted by: yuppa
I have been having a argument of sorts with a few friends lately about this question. If you leave your door wide open and unlocked are you responsible if someone comes along and steals anything inside?
COmmon sense would say yes you bear soem responsibility correct? but for some reason my friend insist that no they are not at fault period.

What is your opinion on this question ATS?

Is a person who doesn't own a dog more liable than someone who doesn't? If I don't install a deadbolt lock, am I more at fault than someone who installs dual deadbolts? Should I bear more responsibility if my back door isn't as secure as my front door? What about windows?

The answer remains the same... the intruder is 100% at fault in all cases. It doesn't matter how secure the house is, the person trespassing is doing so knowing that they're not entitled to enter or to take your possessions. What type of lock I have on the front door also won't change what gun I'll use to shoot said intruder either, or how many times I'll "fear for my life."

originally posted by: ArdentAngel

originally posted by: yuppa
I have been having a argument of sorts with a few friends lately about this question. If you leave your door wide open and unlocked are you responsible if someone comes along and steals anything inside?
COmmon sense would say yes you bear soem responsibility correct? but for some reason my friend insist that no they are not at fault period.

What is your opinion on this question ATS?

Is a person who doesn't own a dog more liable than someone who doesn't? If I don't install a deadbolt lock, am I more at fault than someone who installs dual deadbolts? Should I bear more responsibility if my back door isn't as secure as my front door? What about windows?

The answer remains the same... the intruder is 100% at fault in all cases. It doesn't matter how secure the house is, the person trespassing is doing so knowing that they're not entitled to enter or to take your possessions. What type of lock I have on the front door also won't change what gun I'll use to shoot said intruder either, or how many times I'll "fear for my life."

Never said the criminal wasnt responsible. I said that the owner AS WELL bears some responsibility. If they did not the insurance company and police would not have a negligence determination for homeowners and car owners.

I leave my door wide open where a crook can see in and leave to go run a errend. Crook walks in steals all my stuff BECAUSE i didnt secure my property(my fault/negligence) Yeah th ecrooks 100 percent responsible but SO AM I but not criminally but morally because i was a moron.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: yuppa

You break no law leaving your door open.

Is a woman at fault if they get raped after getting roofied because they drank the drink?

Being at fault, and being wise in mitigating the possibility of being preyed upon are two different things.

Example. leave your door open and a child wonders in and get hurt or killed. woudnt you be responsible?

originally posted by: yuppa
If you leave your door wide open and unlocked are you responsible...

There's no fault here.

An unlocked door has nothing to do with stealing.

Also, things can evolve contrary to what you'd think.

For example, I once lived in a neighborhood where most residents had average security. Everybody had locks on their doors. But, that was about the extent of securing their premises.

Then, one day, a new family moved into the neighborhood. They renovated the house across the road from us, and added bars on all their windows, chained up their gate, and added extensions to increase the height of their fence.

About a year after they moved in, they were robbed.

None of the other houses in the neighborhood were hit by the robbers.

Apparently, the robbers looked around, and saw that most people had only basic security, but this one house stood out from the crowed. They had the most security of all the houses around.

So, the robbers picked that house to break into, and steal. They must have thought, with all that additional security, the residents must have had something valuable to take.

But, I knew the family well, and they had nothing more than the rest of us in that neighborhood.

They were just more paranoid about being robbed.

So, they were.

The moral of this story is, don't stand out from the crowd. Just do what everybody else is doing.

Another well known fact, is that in some neighborhoods, thieves are known to avoid homes with unlocked doors.

If you need to lock your property, then you're obviously vulnerable, and telegraphing it.

But, if you leave your front door wide open, the thief has to think for himself

"Why is this person not worried about me?"

Apart from little children, adult thieves tend to avoid those clearly open door properties.

Doesn't always work. Know your neighborhood.

I don't know the letter of the law in the US but in the UK a crime would be "breaking and entering". Now there cannot be such a crime if the criminal did not break anything to get into the property. The optimum word is "break".
Now I don't know about this in the US either. If you try to claim for loss on your household insurance and the theft was caused by you leaving the door open the insurance company would negate your claim through the reasoning that you failed to take adequate security of your property. Some insurance companies insist that you have high security locks on your doors and if you haven't fitted them that also would negate your insurance.
So yes it is in your best interests to lock your door.

originally posted by: crayzeed
I don't know the letter of the law in the US but in the UK a crime would be "breaking and entering".

You don't have to physically "break" anything to be charged with "breaking and entering."

By merely entering, you're "breaking" that very invisible barrier that divides private property from public space.

I once knew a burglar who would blame the people he was stealing off; no, it was him at fault, he was the one that broke in and stole the stuff. He even once said "its their fault, if they didnt have stuff to steal, I wouldnt steal it". Basically victim blaming burglary.

Get a Rottweiler, train it. Leave doors and windows unlocked as much as you like.

The real philosophical question is,

if the thief sees it's unlocked, will he think there's anything worth stealing?

a reply to: pteridine

In my State if somebody breaks into my home and I kill them, it is legal. In my State if somebody breaks into my home, slips on a rug and gets hurt, they can sue me for everything I have. Kind of strange isn't it?

originally posted by: Nickn3
What if you lock the door and set a trap and kill the burglar? Who is at fault?

The homeowner. Booby Traps are illegal per the Geneva Convention.

originally posted by: Natas0114
Get a Rottweiler, train it. Leave doors and windows unlocked as much as you like.

Nope thats like having a booby trap. because your dog is trained to kill anyone it sees as a intruder. now if your door was locked then you would not be liable.

originally posted by: SRPrime
...the police aren't going to believe you...

The police are not there to determine your guilt or innocence in a potential insurance fraud, they are there to take your statement.

a reply to: yuppa

You can't booby trap your own house?
What a shame.

a reply to: Natas0114

That reminds me of a joke that fits right in here.

A guy breaks into a house. As he's looking around he hears a voice that says "Jesus is watching you." The guy freezes and looks around. He can't see anybody so he goes back to seeing what he can steal. Again he hears a voice, "Jesus is watching you." He looks around and finally sees a parrot on its perch. He asks the parrot "Are you the one saying Jesus is watching you?" The parrot says "Yes." The guy asks the parrot "What's your name?" The parrot replies "Clarence." What kind of person would name a parrot Clarence?" The parrot replies "The same kind of person who named the Rottweiler Jesus."

a reply to: JIMC5499

HAAAAA Love it.

Bottom line stealing is stealing. If you don't lock your stuff up it doesn't give anyone the right to steal your stuff. I forgot to lock my back door last summer. I came home to find someone had been in my house and I just missed him. Does that mean I wouldn't have the right to beat the snot out of that person if I caught them in my house. You know bearing personal responsibility and all. Or maybe I should have held the door open for him as he carried my TV out. Nothing gives anyone the right to take something that doesn't belong to them.

originally posted by: MagicCow
a reply to: yuppa

You can't booby trap your own house?
What a shame.

Of course you can.

Same way the burglar can brake in and take whatever he wants.

It's always a good idea to get the burglar to think "Is this guy likely to be more illegal than me?"

That's why you see signs saying "Beware of the dog!"

That dog is the burglar's booby trap.