Utopian future will not work

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Shuye

That sounds way too much like everyone is a drone waiting to be of service to others.

In short, a very boring Utopia.

The image in your head is what's boring.

Only if you have been in service to others (true service, not for money), you will see the incentive is even greater to help than it is to get something out of it for yourself.

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

Think of it as being a child.

Your mum/dad wants you to do weekly chores (dishes, cleaning bedroom, taking trash out, etc.). If a kid gets asked to do them, normally they would refuse. Add a reward/currency and the child would be more motivated to do said chores.

We will need to change our collective thought process from one of scarcity (I need currency to feel safe), to abundance (I have everything I need.)
Once we move to sustainable energy, money will no longer be an issue. People will be self-sufficient on a global scale. They will be able to follow their passions and dreams!

a reply to: Kandinsky

Most of our biggest scientific discoveries in technology has been during a time of war. There was also a reward. To get the assets the "bad guys" have. Be it land, tech, minerals, rocks, oil or whatnot.

Humans are far from being peaceful beings, but I think this is starting to drift away from the main point of the thread.

a reply to: TerryDon79

You know what I would do, were I free of the bonds about my wrists, the cost of living? I would spend more time with my son. I would take him out into the woods and the fields, and teach him the ways of our ancestors, to hunt humanely, to cook outside, to build fire and shelter, and pick good things from the earth to eat.

I would spend time inventing, rather than grinding away at my life under constant pressure to produce, produce, produce.

I would spend time at protests and demonstrations, advocating for a future my son and those who come after him, could be proud of, rather than another step down the Orwellian route of total surveillance and zero privacy, of war for profit not for principle, and newspeak ever louder than the truth I covet.

I would do these things and more, many more, because freedom such as that, would be the most enlivening thing imaginable. But first...I would sleep.

originally posted by: Shuye
Only if you have been in service to others (true service, not for money), you will see the incentive is even greater to help than it is to get something out of it for yourself.

I do plenty of charity work via my Lodge and on my own but I have no intention of doing that full time.

A life of cleaning up other people's crap does not exactly sound like Utopia to me.

originally posted by: DarkvsLight29

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: DarkvsLight29

But that still involves rewards and/or currency. That means there's still motivation.

My whole point is, take money and rewards away in a utopia and you have no motivation. No motivation means nothing will get done. That in turn means there would be chaos.

Hardly a utopia.

Yeah, guess your right.

That means a utopia will just be a survival exercise, who wins gets to live...Hunger Games.

Basically it comes down to existing, rather than living.

Not much of a utopia, is it?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Then why did they still have 'credits'?

Because Labor still had value and if replicators could churn out anything, then you can't barter with bushels of apples - it'd be like printing money.

People however were not working their asses off just to survive. That's was a utopia would actually be.

a reply to: NeuronDivide

I think we'll be long dead before there's ever a change of people wanting things (currency/rewards) to we have what we need.

It's our nature to want. It's our nature to have more than the other guy/gal. It's our motivation for doing anything.

originally posted by: eNumbra
Because Labor still had value and if replicators could churn out anything, then you can't barter with bushels of apples - it'd be like printing money.

The actual answer is that they had credits because they still used money. Roddenberry just wanted to sound more hip and counter culture so he changed the name.

People however were not working their asses off just to survive. That's was a utopia would actually be.

So when the crew went on leave and hung out at those bars drinking Romulan Ale the servers were all volunteers? I suspect they were working for a living.

a reply to: TrueBrit

And once your son has grown up, left home, moved to the other side of the world. Then what?

You're also motivated to get your son the best X, Y or Z. To get X, Y or Z you (presumably) work to earn currency.

Your motivation is your son. For now. What happens when it's not?

a reply to: TerryDon79

So, it looks like your saying H G Wells nailed it. In the future you are an Eloi or Morlock.

The 1% and their servants will be the Morlocks and the rest will be the Eloi.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Of course it's in our nature to "want", but if everyone had access to unlimited "funds", society would no longer be based on wage slavery (bio-survival fear).

Everyone would be equal and could be whoever they want to be. Hopefully they would "want" to better themselves and the planet!

a reply to: Bramble Iceshimmer

Pretty much the way it is now and has been for a very long time.

As I said in a previous post. People are naturally hierarchical. Leaders and followers.

It's just the way we are. Take that away and there's chaos.

a reply to: NeuronDivide

Take away currency. Throw it out the window. Burn it. Abolish it. It no longer exists.

People wouldn't need a thing. Every house is a carbon copy of the next. Every room has the same equipment. All tech is dispersed equally. All food and water is in abundance. Everyone can do and go where they want.

You've basically taken away the human wants and taken away a large portion of what motivates us all.

If a police man/woman isn't motivated to do their job, crimes happen.

If a cleaner doesn't clean. Place gets dirty.

If a taxi driver doesn't drive. People don't get to places.

Everything starts falling apart when there's little to no motivation.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Shuye
Only if you have been in service to others (true service, not for money), you will see the incentive is even greater to help than it is to get something out of it for yourself.

I do plenty of charity work via my Lodge and on my own but I have no intention of doing that full time.

A life of cleaning up other people's crap does not exactly sound like Utopia to me.

I agree, I wasn't clear enough I guess when I said this would take hundreds of years (and if), and so many changes in our human perspective. I just pointed out how utopia could work.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Fatherhood ends when life does.

No matter how old he becomes, I will always be his father, and I will ensure that I am always in a position to provide what I can for him, be there for him should he ever need me. I will never put down my responsibility to him, not until the breath has left my lungs forever.

A fathers work is never finished.

originally posted by: Shuye
I agree, I wasn't clear enough I guess when I said this would take hundreds of years (and if), and so many changes in our human perspective. I just pointed out how utopia could work.

What you refer to as the 'human perspective' is hardwired into our brains. Humans cannot just stop being human.

Now, if you want to say at some point you think we will evolve into a completely altruistic species that is a different story. By I personally doubt that as well.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Ok. I knew I was gonna stumble on this as I hit reply lol. I don't want to imply this is personal btw.

Stuff for your son is why you wanted currency. Be it the better hunting rifle, better knife, belt, boots and so on.

Now, take that away. You don't need to work to get it as you can get it for free by clicking a button on a machine or speaking to a person in a shop.

That means you don't need to do your job(s). There's no motivation to work.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
So when the crew went on leave and hung out at those bars drinking Romulan Ale the servers were all volunteers? I suspect they were working for a living.

Not every planet was part of the Federation, and you're asking for specifics that weren't ever written.

I cannot help but believe that self-motivation kicks in when all outside motivations are removed. Haven't you ever done something and really just felt good about it? That feeling...of Ah ha...I did it! or just amazement over what you accomplished? The only reward is your own recognition?