Women shouldn't be allowed abortion

a reply to: eletheia

I think the reason that there is such a bend toward blaming the woman is because....The defenders of abortion keep saying over and over that it is the woman's choice. ...so now when we emphasize the woman's role in it...You reverse and start saying. ..what about the man ?

Having said that....I have no problem seeing the men that are involved punished. ..if a man impregnated a woman and then suggests or supports her having an abortion. ...he should be fixed so he cannot impregnate any more women....

And any man that impregnated a woman that chooses to keep the child and that man doesn't commit to marriage or at least financially supporting the child. ..should suffer the same consequence.

There are obviously some women on this thread that have very serious anger issues toward men.....it taints their view of some of the posts on here.

And while I had to concede that I cannot force anyone else to do what I think is right regarding abortion....I do think that everything possible should be done to reduce the number of them by employing things such as the morning after pill and adoption of the baby...... I think the vast majority of mid term and late term abortions could easily be eliminated.

originally posted by: UKTruth
I think the argument framed as pro-choice is wrong. In the vast majority of cases of abortions, women had the choice in the first place. Have unprotected sex or not. Choice.

Are you trying to tell me a man never lies?
like he says it wont matter they are going to be together forever anyway?

or some such thing!!


The truest thing I was ever told is "A rising p**** has no conscience"

A resulting pregnancy is a consequence of that choice.

It takes two to tango, If he didn't want any part of any consequences he to

should have made sure .... after all any result is half his? ... but then he

can, and does walk away

Oh look a load of people attempting to control the lives of women.
Sorry but maybe their ex had one and it hurts them because the ex didn't want a child with them.
You berate and call out women for abortions but want to force them to have them.
If you don't agree with choice dont have an abortion it is that simple and to be honest we men have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies.
Like others have said when everychild is adopted then we could have a chat on how to reduce the need for abortions.

It pure hating on women all this always berating never offering solutions to reduce abortion. Never any man's fault is it?.
Some still want women to have no rights along with gaY's and others.
I feel for you women in the states it appears your new administration is in the same boat as the OP.
Oh and UKTruth you don't have sex for fun? ever?...

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: UKTruth
I think the argument framed as pro-choice is wrong. In the vast majority of cases of abortions, women had the choice in the first place. Have unprotected sex or not. Choice.

Are you trying to tell me a man never lies?

like he says it wont matter they are going to be together forever anyway?

or some such thing!!


The truest thing I was ever told is "A rising p**** has no conscience"

A resulting pregnancy is a consequence of that choice.

It takes two to tango, If he didn't want any part of any consequences he to

should have made sure .... after all any result is half his? ... but then he

can, and does walk away

It's still a choice.
As for the man, he can't walk away. He is legally obliged to support his child.
Both a man and a woman have the choice initially to have unprotected sex (except in the case of rape)
Both need to take responsibility for their choices.

originally posted by: UKTruth
I think the argument framed as pro-choice is wrong. In the vast majority of cases of abortions, women had the choice in the first place. Have unprotected sex or not. Choice.

Hogwash, and testimony of a total lack of understanding of sexuality and sexual relations. Don't forget that having sex involves getting aroused and that being aroused is comparable to being drunk: you may THINK you are in control, but you've lost it long ago. This is even more so when the man and woman are young (lots of hormones) and even more so if both stem from a prudent culture. Even seeing an ankle can arouse people in such cultures. So, if there IS a choice, it is the choice you make before you get aroused: getting protection. Alas, prudent cultures are against contraceptives too.

A resulting pregnancy is a consequence of that choice. After a certain period of time, the unborn child is not the woman's body, it is the child's body and a woman should have no rights at all to murder the child.
Unborn children feel pain at about 20 weeks (latest science), but we're learning more all the time.

No, the resulting pregnacy is unwanted; if it were wanted the woman would not have it aborted. Hence, the woman can decide to end the pregnancy. That's law in my country, and in many other civilised countries. BTW: legalising abortion has actually decremented the amount of abortions in my country, and creating a culture in which contraceptives are seen as normal also helps.

originally posted by: UKTruth
It's still a choice.

And the most reliable of her choices is termination ......

As for the man, he can't walk away. He is legally obliged to support his child.

In reality he does .... legally obliged??
Have you ever tried to get blood from a stone?

Both a man and a woman have the choice initially to have unprotected sex.
Both need to take responsibility for their choices.

Agreed.... But it is only one who is left holding the baby

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: UKTruth
I think the argument framed as pro-choice is wrong. In the vast majority of cases of abortions, women had the choice in the first place. Have unprotected sex or not. Choice.

Hogwash, and testimony of a total lack of understanding of sexuality and sexual relations. Don't forget that having sex involves getting aroused and that being aroused is comparable to being drunk: you may THINK you are in control, but you've lost it long ago. This is even more so when the man and woman are young (lots of hormones) and even more so if both stem from a prudent culture. Even seeing an ankle can arouse people in such cultures. So, if there IS a choice, it is the choice you make before you get aroused: getting protection. Alas, prudent cultures are against contraceptives too.

A resulting pregnancy is a consequence of that choice. After a certain period of time, the unborn child is not the woman's body, it is the child's body and a woman should have no rights at all to murder the child.
Unborn children feel pain at about 20 weeks (latest science), but we're learning more all the time.

No, the resulting pregnacy is unwanted; if it were wanted the woman would not have it aborted. Hence, the woman can decide to end the pregnancy. That's law in my country, and in many other civilised countries. BTW: legalising abortion has actually decremented the amount of abortions in my country, and creating a culture in which contraceptives are seen as normal also helps.

Hogwash? No.
Your sentiment is everything that is wrong with society. Blame a lack of control over ones actions and assume it's ok because you were drunk, or couldn't keep your pants on. Then make your troubles go away with the 'knife'.

I wanted to add my random thoughts which, in reality, mean nothing.
I, honestly, don't know if it's murder or not but, I do believe it's not my decision to make for another human being.

I've never had an abortion but, I've never lived those folks lives either nor been in a position that led me to have to make that choice...to follow through with the pregnancy or terminate.

Can we just imagine, for a moment, the anguish that someone must be experiencing to come to that conclusion?
Instead of folks yelling and berating people (who IMO must already be in a very dark and lonely place) who enter the clinics to terminate their pregnancies why don't we find real solutions to the issue that causes them to feel there are no other options?

No, it is not only the woman's responsibility but, it is her who becomes pregnant and women must bear the majority of responsibility for their bodies. I understand that the only form of birth control that is 100% effective is abstinence but, it is probably the least realistic. Both of my daughters, who are not sexually active at the moment, are on a very effective type of birth control as we agreed that promises of abstinence is not realistic and rather than be faced with the awful decision to terminate a pregnancy, give a child away for adoption, or keep the child and change the course of everyone's lives are not decision they are emotionally or psychologically prepared to make at this time in their lives.

Perhaps more open and honest communication with young women is a step in the right direction. Having been adopted and adopting three of my nephews I can say that adoption isn't without it's pitfalls and trials and I'm not sure I can feel morally justified in telling another woman that she simply must carry a pregnancy to term and then give that child to someone else to raise. If there are so many good hearted people wanting children in the world then why are there any children in state custody, foster care and the like? If someone's motives are to love and rear a child then why, so often, do they insist on it being an infant? My brother went overseas to adopt three of his children. I've never asked him why. There are so many unwanted children here in the US.

That's another subject, for sure but, I can't imagine what one must experience to come to that conclusion to terminate but, I do believe the majority of the decision rests with the woman (as it is her body). I also wonder that if someone feels that strongly and is forced to carry that pregnancy to term and support that child what life could we be suffering that child to? Do I wish there were no need for abortions? Of course. It is not a single black and white issue, IMO. Arguing the morality of abortions is pointless to me as in that offers no real answers. It's sort of like closing the barn door after the horse escapes.

What brings someone to that decision and the pain and suffering they must be experiencing is key, to me, in understanding and perhaps decreasing the number of or need for abortions. It is not my decision to make for someone else. My beliefs are mine in how I choose to live my life not things that I feel compelled to force on someone else. It took sometime for me to come to that. I know people who have had abortions and I harbored resentment toward them in my heart until I pondered my part of them feeling so compelled to make that choice and then I felt peace and love toward them. It takes a village to raise a child and they, at that time, felt they had no village.

originally posted by: UKTruthHogwash? No.
Your sentiment is everything that is wrong with society. Blame a lack of control over ones actions and assume it's ok because you were drunk, or couldn't keep your pants on. Then make your troubles go away with the 'knife'.

That "lack of control" you're talking about is the only reason we're all here, so it's quite absurd to try to suppress it. And actually, I love sex, so I can imagine others loving it too

Also, I resent the way you picture an abortion: as if it is something that is routinely done by women whom are simply reckless. Nonsens - no woman loves to have abortions, methinks. Iit involves discussions with doctors, being but on an operating table, sedated, scraped clean and sometimes being miserable for several days. And it is not entirely without risk either. So, it's far better to prevent such situations, at least we agree on that. Bu if a woman decides that she does not want that baby - it's her right. And that's a good thing.

originally posted by: soulwaxer

originally posted by: SRPrime

There is absolutely no difference in a monthly menstruation, or when a man masturbates compared to an early term abortion.

That's like saying there is no difference between an apple seed and an apple.

soulwaxer

Well that's because there isn't. An apple seed is the first form of an apple. You can't have an apple without the seed, can you?

You can't have a chicken without an egg, and if killing the chicken is bad, than so is destroying the egg that would have become a chicken. It's the literal same logic you pro lifers apply to the fetus. A fetus is not an infant, nor is it a person, it's a fetus. A fetus is just a fertilized egg.

It'd be the same as a fertilized apple seed.

The other part of the pro life argument that makes zero sense, the importance you put on the unborn and the value you give them over the actual born. Born>Unborn.

I'm here and I'm not making my life harder and forcing y'all to take care of a kid that I cannot sustain....

It's like, somewhere in your head you don't understand the implication of banning abortion. You will be birthing almost exclusively a criminal population with out parental guidance at all.

What are the effects that banning abortion would have on you, if you say none --you're definitely mistaken.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

did you know that after the age of about 30, many women will be advised by their doctors to get off those hormonal birth control methods because they are at risk of causing some bad side effects? so, that leaves out the IUD.
did you also know that until obamacare was passed, tubal litigations weren't covered by all insurance policies, and they do cost a significant about of money. did you know that ever with a tubal litigation, or vesectomy, there is a chance of pregnancy.

I was told to get off the pill by my doctor after my first child, because of those health risks, I concieve two other children while trying those other forms of birth control...combined with condoms.. personal experience kinds of makes me doubtful of their effectiveness. and at that time, a tubal litigation wasn't really an option because, I did want other kids, I just didn't want my oldest under three years old when my youngest was born! but, placing all this aside.....
I see alot of "victimhood" being expressed by some of the guys on this thread....
and, I put victimhood in parenthesis because I am not using that with any kind of derogatory meaning here. they may actually feel that an injustice has been levied against them. well, it's a well known fact that woman can get raped. so therefore, those women who have to walk down lonely streets after dark more than likely takes some precautions, they try to stay in the well lit areas, they might have some mace in their purse, they might have a gun in their purse, ect.
when it comes to pregnancy, men seem to think that they shouldn't be taking any precautions whatsoever, it's all on the women, and then freak out when they don't like the results... only, your lives get screwed up also. if you are 100% sure that you don't want a baby, if you can't be 100% sure that a baby can't be conceived, if you can't be 100% sure that the women will be willing to consider you desires if a baby is conceived.....
then it's the wrong time to have sex!!!
you can't blame women for all these abortions if you are having one night flings, and trying to convince women that you are real good at pulling out at the right time!! and there's been a couple posts on the abortion threads here have have boasted about how good they are at that...
IT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK!! nothing always works!! heck, if you are religious, you should know this because being a virgin didn't even work for mary!!!

These posting go on and on, and people are polarized on this issue, about abortion, yet there is much more to this issue than just the medical procedure that has been brought up.

Take a good hard look at the laws and education of the country, and the political and court fights that have happened in the past 10 years and then it becomes very clear about where some of the problems come up and out.

Here are some of the problems that should be noted as part of the abortion argument.

Sex education: That is a topic that tends to bring out the worst in people. Far too few states, will have proper education for the children, and in many cases the emphasis has been on abstinence, which does not work. The lack of knowledge about contraception combined with a program that does not work, tends to lead to people either getting sick or unwanted pregnancies. And in some communities, they bulk at actually teaching about such, that has led to the rise of STD’s among some high schools, or where girls still have a higher rate of teen pregnancy than other areas. Even the mention of handing out free condoms or providing contraceptives have meet with stiff opposition and complaints by parents, who are not wanting to even explain the simple birds and the bees to their children.

Another point that has gotten national attention is contraceptives being provided by health insurance. When Obamacare first came out, many of the same people who object to abortions, fought nail, tooth and claw against having to provide contraceptives as part of the health insurance. They did not want to do such and were fighting and complaining every step of the way. Now clearly that could have been one logical way to actually stop or even give a good argument against abortions, but they want it both ways.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

it wouldn't have stopped abortions, that should be written off as a goal. it would have reduced the number of abortions, which if you look at the statistics, that number has been falling for awhile.

there's a school in DC that is across the street from where planned parenthood is building a site. for awhile, the anti-abortionists were showing up every day protesting the site. they were actually chasing kids down the sidewalk handing them information and shouting how they were killing babies across the street...
now mind you that across the street there was a construction site making all the noises a construction site makes and some of these kids were preschoolers and kindergartners. can you imagine just how frightening that building might be to kids that age?? they might not want sex education to be taught in schools, but they seem to have no problem forcing those schools and the parents to talk to their kids about abortions!!

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: UKTruth
I think the argument framed as pro-choice is wrong. In the vast majority of cases of abortions, women had the choice in the first place. Have unprotected sex or not. Choice.

Hogwash, and testimony of a total lack of understanding of sexuality and sexual relations. Don't forget that having sex involves getting aroused and that being aroused is comparable to being drunk: you may THINK you are in control, but you've lost it long ago. This is even more so when the man and woman are young (lots of hormones) and even more so if both stem from a prudent culture. Even seeing an ankle can arouse people in such cultures. So, if there IS a choice, it is the choice you make before you get aroused: getting protection. Alas, prudent cultures are against contraceptives too.

A resulting pregnancy is a consequence of that choice. After a certain period of time, the unborn child is not the woman's body, it is the child's body and a woman should have no rights at all to murder the child.
Unborn children feel pain at about 20 weeks (latest science), but we're learning more all the time.

No, the resulting pregnacy is unwanted; if it were wanted the woman would not have it aborted. Hence, the woman can decide to end the pregnancy. That's law in my country, and in many other civilised countries. BTW: legalising abortion has actually decremented the amount of abortions in my country, and creating a culture in which contraceptives are seen as normal also helps.

Hogwash? No.
Your sentiment is everything that is wrong with society. Blame a lack of control over ones actions and assume it's ok because you were drunk, or couldn't keep your pants on. Then make your troubles go away with the 'knife'.

It's true though. People don't have control, what we are talking about is primal instinct. Attraction/arousal supercedes decision making. This is a fundamental fact of nature.

That's irrespective of those that do even still, despite the force of nature, make good decisions and have protection failures. Despite what your may believe, wearing a condom or taking birth control does not invalidate the possibility of pregnancy, it just reduces it's probability.

So your can dot your I's, cross your T's and be on your p's and q's and still end up with an unwanted pregnancy. The only way to make for certain that it can't happen is to abstain. Abstaining isn't natural, it's literally defying the natural urges and instincts, which is ridiculous to expect people to do, which is why they don't for the most part.

It's people like your who punish natural instinct that make society fubar. It hurts you none is some random girl aborts an unwanted pregnancy, it would hurt us all if we forced her to carry it.

Don't you see the decision that damages society greater is the one that you support?

This should be a non topic, when life starts is a matter of opinion, not fact, we don't legislate opinions.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: UKTruthHogwash? No.
Your sentiment is everything that is wrong with society. Blame a lack of control over ones actions and assume it's ok because you were drunk, or couldn't keep your pants on. Then make your troubles go away with the 'knife'.

That "lack of control" you're talking about is the only reason we're all here, so it's quite absurd to try to suppress it. And actually, I love sex, so I can imagine others loving it too

Also, I resent the way you picture an abortion: as if it is something that is routinely done by women whom are simply reckless. Nonsens - no woman loves to have abortions, methinks. Iit involves discussions with doctors, being but on an operating table, sedated, scraped clean and sometimes being miserable for several days. And it is not entirely without risk either. So, it's far better to prevent such situations, at least we agree on that. Bu if a woman decides that she does not want that baby - it's her right. And that's a good thing.

It is not her right, according to the law. There are restrictions around viability. So the woman's right argument as the final arbiter is and has always been nonsense, even when citing Roe vs Wade.

We didn't get here through shagging indiscriminately because we couldn't help ourselves. What utter rubbish.

a reply to: Darkphoenix77

my thoughts exactly.this isn't a religion question. this is a human rights question.

jaden

a reply to: UKTruth

ya, the restrictions centers on viability, when the fetus can survive outside of the womb... that belongs to the women. at that point, if the women has good reason not to want that fetus in her body anymore, she doesn't have to kill it to evict is, they can do a c-section and life support for the baby. there is no question at that point that this clump of cells if a self aware baby (as long as there is no extreme birth defects present). that same can't be said about a fertilized egg, that no one would know even existed if it wasn't for that little pregnancy tests that measures the levels of certain hormones in her body.

a reply to: dawnstar

But that is the point. If one can stop an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy, then the need or desire for an abortion goes way down and the issue simply goes away.

But it is as if, many who are against abortion, only want one thing, yet do not think of viable ways of making such obsolete fully and completely. Kind of like looking at a cake, wanting to make a cake, yet really ticked off when it comes down and not realizing that there are steps between the picture and the end result.