Does The Idea Of God Play A Pivotable Role In The Conspiracy?

Toltec,

O si yo Dto hi tsu?

Ho-wa.

Toltec, that is alot of question, let me just answer the header question.

Well, Heck, yes, religion has been used against every society in every century or every era.

People who do not know their beliefs well can have those same beliefs twisted, perverted and used to whip them into a frenzy by the government leaders. Nothing new there, whether it be Islamic terrorists of today or the poor peasants of teh Dark Ages when The Church controlled the language of the Bible and what the peasants were led to believe God said.

Belief is a tremendous thing to use, and it can overcome facts and evidence.

Yes, and by every culture I will reiterate my statements made to you Thomas at the prior board no one is innocent when it comes to reviewing the actions of ancient ancestors.

Valhall thank you again.

Leveller the issue of life after death pertains to the matter that there is no conspiracy. In the end all questions will be answered at what seemed so important will suddenly become secondary.

At least that is what we understand.

It is inherent in mans nature to question, to go beyond what may on the surface seem plain.

One could then consider that an image made of flesh would mirror a creator who can inherently do the same.

Furthermore, a classification from the context of all religions who's membership feels they have the
answer is rather long.

Leveller

I don't think that we're talking about "God" conspiring against us; but about PEOPLE using a false concept of "God" to manipulate us. This is Relatively speaking.
I think that you somewhat expressed the idea that "God" or The ALL(El Kuluwm) is beyond Relativity and is Absolute; which makes sense.



ONE


[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Tamahu]

Well, that's what **I** am talking about.

And I have noticed something in my theological studies. Where the "christian" organized religious groups have committed the greatest atrocities against the "true" doctrine of the Bible can all be traced back to incorrect translations in the KJV. Which makes me wonder if it weren't intentional...just a thought, so don't jump on me. Now, of course, when we talk about "christian" organized religion anywhere further back than Luther or Calvin we have to admit that we are talking about the Catholic church. So, let's just state that and get it out of the way...no white elephants in the room.

I give you two for instances of how "bad" translations could have fueled "the conspiracy":

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

or so KJV claims...

How about:

You shall not "swear falsely by" the name of the Lord yourGod; for the Lord will not clear one who swears falsely by His name. (Torah, the new JPS)

OR

The third commandment teaches us "...that we must not swear by God in a false matter." Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book III, Chapter 5, verse 5.

And yet another Jewish translation:

(commentary) "However, the Hebrew, Lo tissa, literally means 'You shall not carry'..."
"You shall not carry the Lord your God's name in vain."
(commentary) "in other words, don't use God as your justification in selfish causes." Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, Jewish Literacy

ewwwww, SO, had the KJV been properly translated, could the Catholic church ever possibly carried out the crusades? Instead, we got the KJV as it is, and a whole lot of Catholics that refuse to say goddamn!!! Well, goddamn, you killed a $h|t load of people, didn't you...in a vain cause...using the name of God! but you didn't say goddamn - so you're okie-dokie (which just happens to be the plural of okum-dokum)!

Second instance: Skip to New Testament, Paul at Mount Mars, in his address to the Greeks. Paul has viewed all the Greek altars to all the Greek gods and has seen that the Greek's in their TRUE desire to worship ALL possible gods has erected the altar to the "Unknown God"...

KJV:

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too SUPERSTITIOUS. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye IGNORANTLY worship, him declare I unto you. (KJV, Acts 17:22-23)

oops, lookie here!

A more accurate translation of the Greek manuscripts states:

"And having stood - Paul in (the) middle of the Areopagus he said, Men, Athenians, with respect to everything how very RELIGIOUS I observe you (to be). For passing through and looking carefully at the objects of worship of you, I found also an altar on which had been inscribed, TO (THE) UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore what NOT KNOWING you worship, this I proclaim to you."
(UBS Greek/English Interlinear New Testament)

I think even the casual observer would quickly note that there are two almost diabolical connotations in these two translations. The first a negative ridiculing with the adjectives "superstitious" and "ignorant". The second, a positive commending with the observance of the Greeks' "religious" nature, and then offering to reveal what has been (by their own inscription admitted) the UNKNOWN.

Once again we have to wonder...would thousands and thousands and thousands of "pagans" and "heathens" and heck...even pagans' trees??? been murdered, in a false cause, in God's name in the crusades had the masses not been led thru mistranslation to believe that the "enemy" was both "superstitious" and "ignorant"???

YES, organized religion has been part of the conspiracy (I still don't know what conspiracy I'm referring to here...)

There are differences with respect how differing belief systems present there faith, the cause in fact of many wars throughout history.

To presume that at least some of these war were the result not of malice but rather a sincere commitment to the "Word of God" would be premature.

I obviously accept the idea of a God that is absolute
and beyond reality as we understand it.

But at the same time the idea that any particular belief is more right than others, or that somehow we should treat all worlds religions like a puzzle brings up several issues.

All of which are related to a mandate's given and not given.

Originally posted by Toltec
To presume that at least some of these war were the result not of malice but rather a sincere commitment to the "Word of God" would be premature.

I am stating that the evidence shows that the Catholic church mistranslated the "Word of God" and then got real committed to that mistranslation. I personally believe it was for political/power-mongering reasons.

Also, I wanted to make sure, before somebody busts my chops on this, that I clarified one thing. I am not stating the "literal King James Version" hardcopy bible fueled the crusades...because it couldn't...it came after them. What I am saying is, one of two things seem to have occurred (IMHO):

1.) the mistranslation occurred far back before the KJV (either intentionally or otherwise) and was incorporated into that writing, OR
2.) it was mandated because of prior acts of the church.

Let's face it, the Catholic clergy were "translating" long before the commission to have a group of Jewish translators set down and record the KJV. So let's pose this question:

They are already reading their old testament manuscripts and they go out and rape, pillage and plunder in the name of God...did they just disregard their manuscripts in order to be morally comfortable with these acts??? or was this based on a mistranslation with no malice? Doesn't matter, let's skip forward to the official KJV recording...our group of Jewish scholars translate and it DOESN'T MATCH what has been officially taught/proselytized in the Catholic church for 100's of years...oops, what do you think happened then???

Toltec, I am dealing in evidence, not political correctness. I am not busting the "catholic laiety". I have nothing against catholic believers. I am stating history here. Don't try to sugar coat it. This is part of the truthful answer to your original question.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Valhall]

gee i have been answering posts all morning throwing my two cents in wherever it is called for well this is what i think that no matter how you slice it religion is a good idea because it does give people the chance to strive for better life but it can also bring a person down .......my reply is probably the one that diverges from the norm in the fact i don't believe in Man's version of God but i do believe in the idea that there is a higher place we can all achieve if we try not to be bogged down by the world and it's insanity.we are all one being at the most smallest level and we as a BEING can achieve miracles if we try but there are way too many distractions that we follow......so the question is do we give up all the trappings of "our world " and let our attitudes go to make a heaven on Earth or will we continue to hate and see ourselves as better than the other man?if we are all one being we have to help the other or we will not survive .....i have no hope for humanity at all

Gee...don't give up so easy We'll make it. Here's my take on it. In the end, the good will win, and therefore...we really shouldn't sweat the little stuff.

I appreciate your words.

I believe that organised religion has done it's job and should now be slowly diminished in importance.

Religions were set up to spread the Word. There are now no people left on the planet who haven't heard of God.

It's now up to them if they want to choose to believe or not.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Toltec

I obviously accept the idea of a God that is absolute
and beyond reality as we understand it.

But at the same time the idea that any particular belief is more right than others, or that somehow we should treat all worlds religions like a puzzle brings up several issues.

I agree, no 'one' religion is better than another and shouldn't be treated as such.

I have no problem with religion idealistically, but I do have a problem with it when it effects how we all get a long as a whole.

In order for us to evolve, I believe everyone needs to stop taking religion so seriously. We must start coming together as one without religion in order to evolve as a whole.

Or of course, we could always just blow eachother up and get it over with.

i have no hope for humanity at all

Can you tell us more about why you feel that way?

STARCHYLDE the real reason I am asking is because your post seemed so positive and wanted to hear your reasons for feeling that way.

Valhall to wit its not just the Holy Bible

74.
If the people don't fear death
How will you scare them with death?
If you make the people continuously fear death
By seizing anybody who does something out of the ordinary
And killing them,
Who will dare to move?

There is always an official executioner to handle this.
If you play the role of the official executioner
It is like cutting wood in the capacity of Master Carpenter.

There are few who will not cut their hands.

Vs.

72.
When the people do not fear your might
Then your might has truly become great.
Don't interfere with their household affairs.
Don't oppress their livelihood.

If you don't oppress them they won't feel oppressed.

Thus the sage understands herself
But does not show herself.
Loves herself
But does not prize herself.
Therefore she lets go of that

And takes this.

Any thoughts?

Inconsistencies like this exist in the Holy Bible a subject of which if one reviews this Forum one can isolate ( I can provide examples though if interested).

The problem that we all (ie..Human race) confront is the extent to which God has been portrayed as part of the conspiracy.

Toltec,

I believe I have provided a couple of really good points toward "how God has been betrayed as part of the conspiracy".

Right?

Originally posted by Valhall
Here's my take on it. In the end, the good will win, and therefore...we really shouldn't sweat the little stuff.

I prefer: In the end the balance will be restored.

the balance of what?

Originally posted by Valhall
the balance of what?

between good and evil.

How can the balance of good and evil be restored? Are you stating that at some point it was balanced in the past? Are you a proponent of dualism? And do wish for a balancing of good versus evil? And, if so, why?

I have not gone through the whole thread, but i will post my thoughts on the question at hand.
I dont believe the figure of God itself plays a role in these conspiracy's of sort.
I think Men bent on control of the masses have used the name "GOD", and thier chosen religion as an excuse.
I personlly question wether or not he exists or not. But i do believe that thier is a plane of realm on a much hight level than our own as we see it.
I believe the men who realized this were the very men who have gone to written some of our religious scriptures.
These men began to understand what life was in its absolute.
Deep

Val, I'll go a step or two further:

The King James Version, 1611 is a very accurate translation, very accurate to the original manuscripts and can be compared to them to show their accuracy compared to any other translation.
However, the translation has nothing to do with the usage of the book.

Up until all the hoopla that we are all aware of, where some got really tired of the Church reading in Latin to those who didn't understand it and then telling the simple parishoners what they were to believe, it was easy for the church to wield power over the people and while being in bed with government, twist the populace into doing and believing what was desired. After the tranlation into the languages of the common citizenry, another problem has came about, and it not only has been used by ill0intentioned governmental leaders but corrupt clergy as well; the lazy believer.

Have you ever wondered how Robert Tilton bilked millions of dollars from people, thinking they were giving to God but in actuality were giving to a thief? Very simple, people don't read and understand for themselves, they place trust in a pastor they think is good (ie., has a good personality and speaks with authority) and allows him to tell them what to think, who reads stand-alone verses to them and tells them what God meant when he spoke those few words (taken out of context and used to mena what he wants them to think).

This basic principle, whether within the Christian, Catholic, Islamic or any other faith, has probably been what has and is being used against us.

Do you find an error in my thought?

Originally posted by Valhall
How can the balance of good and evil be restored? Are you stating that at some point it was balanced in the past? Are you a proponent of dualism? And do wish for a balancing of good versus evil? And, if so, why?

The balance should swing back and forth, but the closer to Balance the better. Good should be reactionary. Good does not use words like pre-emptive attack.

I don't believe there is a state of ultimate good or ultimate evil. IOW, neither evil or good can ever be eliminated. If you take the world, as it exists now in 2003 and made a list of everything that is evil, and everyone who was 'good' worked together to eliminate it, you wouldn't reach a point of ultimate good. New evils would be created so that the fight for good could continue. Because most people desire to be 'good'- to fight for 'good'.
Good can never win because it will continue to find lesser and lesser evils until a select few with the power (and in the name of righteousness) will have destroyed/imprisoned/oppressed everyone else.
Those seeking ultimate good will inadvertently arrive at the same place as those of ultimate evil.

This is sort of abstract, sorry. The point is, conflict drives progress. Good must fight evil when it becomes too strong (Nazis). But when the evil is put down, everyone intrested in progress must continue forward, not go seeking more evil to put down because it is 'good' or 'righteous' to do so. Because it's not. True progress, things like elimination of poverty, hunger, disease, oppression, etc. disappears and that should be the goal of the good.
More bureaucracry, laws, and the consolidation of power and wealth into a smaller and smaller minority does not equal progress. Or goodness.

So right now, I'd say there's too much evil in the world, but the funny thing is, evil always wears a mask of Good.

Too equate this to religion and conspiracy, I think religion is a good thing in one respect - namely, all major religions teach love, compassion, understanding, tolerance, etc. They establish worthy morals for mankind to follow.
The downside is that you can control people through religion. Skilled speakers can use religion and its followers for evil purposes, without them realizing it.
Or atleast for political purposes.

How many people in the United States, good Christians, are quick to speak out against things like abortion, homosexual marriages and the like, spending millions of dollars campaigning and fighting against these things, while they ignore the homeless problem, drug addiction, mental and physical diseases, poverty and inequality?

Too many people are intrested in 'fighting evil' instead of progressing humanity. Because there's oh so much Glory in fighting evil, isn't there?

I guess the moral of the post is: The person you're listening to will never say he's working for evil (that's partly why they're evil - they lie and say their righteous).
The goal of the good is Progress - not eliminating evil.

So perhaps I'm more for good, than balance after all- but the warning is there.. good can get so wrapped up in fighting evil that it ceases to be good.

I hope this doesn't come across as total nonsense.

PS-i know i didn't answer your questions exactly... sorry.