Does The Idea Of God Play A Pivotable Role In The Conspiracy?

Is the idea of God something, which is to blame for all our problems?

Or is he something, which we should praise as the cure to what is wrong?

For thousands of years mankind has lived believing that something exists outside the realm of this awareness.

And the question placed today is does it serve a purpose or is it the result of a fantasy?

Are we created to guarantee each of us serve a system whose function is intent upon making sure we think God is real?

Is the Holy Bible our master (or for that matter is the Tao te ching its equivalent) ?

Is what we are taught about life and reality with respect to a conservative interpretation valid?

In respect to the issue of conspiracies how does what we today accept as real, differ from what is wrong (in the real world)?

Is creation a mistake, one whose function is to make mankind as a whole feel trepidation over evolution as a valid construct?


Does the very fact we are alive act a proof that God is real, or is it evidence that life is part of a process of which God is a conclusion?

I am open to all ideas and feel that the worst thing to do is to treat something as invalid just because some ideology feels it is wrong.

Has religion acted as an excuse for what is wrong?

If there is a conspiracy (which I feel there is) race and color are not the answers but creed may be another story.

What are your thoughts?

Wow...thats a 'crew' of questions Toltec, and I am sure I will not answer most but I will try to give a thoughtful comment.

IMHO, and my opinion ain't squat......

Religion as a whole is blamed for a Great majority of world problems. How many times has war started in the name of religion or in the name of G-d or Allah or any other diety? How many milllions of lives have been prosecuted or killed or slain in the name of religion or
G-d, etc.? I am not saying religion has not caused some of this but all-in-all, religion was not the blame, nor G-d, nor Allah, nor anything else but Man himself. It is Man who misunderstands the words and doctrines and beliefs, etc. that causes these things.....it is Man who is ultimately responsable.....not religion, etc.

The idea, the thought, the searching for answers that cannot be answered relating to our being here and our inner selves.......the need or yearning for a 'higher' thought, entity, being, G-d, g-ds, etc., has been with Man since the beginning when Man first started looking and noticing things around him and when he started gazing at the wonders seen in the night sky and the ever present sun, during the day. It is a part 'us' and will continue to be a part of us. Its a unexplainable yearning to know something for which we truly don't know. It has been said that a man has a intellectual side but in the same token, has a spiritual side. Intellect, science, logic, etc. cannot fully explain all and in Man's desire to learn all, one cannot help but ask, "Is there something beyond THIS 'all'? Its not only the yearning to know the meaning of life but the yearning to know the meaning to ONE's life; the purpose for it.

We seek and yet we still seek. Some seek the answer daily; some seek the answer when the need arises; some seek the answers through a more scientific, logical, empirical, 'humanism' way. I truly, don't think there is anyone that hasn't at one time or another, wondered the possiblity(s) of a Higher Thought, Intelligence, Being, G-d, etc. I truly believe this. I just think that some where during that searching, one did or didn't find a/an adequate answer(s). Thus resulting in one being a 'believer' or 'nonbeliever'. The yearning is still there, albeit surpressed or hidden away, but its still there.

I think religion, G-d, etc., is a 'catch 22' for everything that happens.....be it good or, most often the case, bad. Since G-d, nor a Higher Intelligence, Being, etc., cannot be proven or disproven "beyond a shadow of a doubt", you end up with controversy, doubt, indecision.

Blah, Blah....I better stop before I cut my throat worse then it is already.

regards
seekerof

Hi Toltec.....

Very good questions!

I beleive that the problems of todays world is because we have fallen away from God.........
We beleive that man is forever going to fix all things.....we believe that man has all the answers and that all things will get better.....

It is a fact that the whole world is not a better place.....we may think it is,or that it has become a better place .......but in reality.......it has only become a world of fiction and a distortion of reality!
People have always taken credit for all the good things in life.eg
medicine,buildings,etc....
But when the time comes to giving credit to God....all things change and the only credit God seems to get is.......Blame
God gets blamed for man's faults ....when in reality it is the fault of the individual.......
God's plan was intended for Good.....
Man intended differently......man has accepted all the credit because man has lost the ability to love and respect all good things.....

When the Devil saw man........he knew that man was weak.......weak because like himself man wished for further knowledge........not having accepted truth from God.......man willingly accepted the 'knowledge that man can become God and fullfill his desire to put himself in the place of God..........
The greatest trick of the Devil is to make man beleive that he does not exist......and if man accepts that as truth, then man can do whatever he wishes and fullfill his imagination with all he desires.........looking at only pleasing himself and no one else..

Not sure if that is being 'right' with the post you made Toltec?

Helen your response presents the conclusion that the devil is the cause of our failure and perhaps the conspiracy which brings us to failure.

Why is it then that God almighty would in his effort to create man suffer upon us an imperfection? One which makes us ripe for such as Satan to offer us a conclusion which is not according to Gods law?

By the same token Seekerof why is religion genetically or otherwise not an answer?

If our capacity to sense or otherwise conclude an answer, then is creation complete?

My impression is that creation is complete and rather it is mans effort to make the alternative seem impossible.

The question then becomes what makes what is impossible real?

Relative to the past is the present at a distance

Relative the future is the present at a divergence

I didn't say it wasn't the complete answer. I merely stated that religion is not the whole cause.

Man is ultimately the cause. G-d does not make Man wage war against Man......excluding old testement examples please. Religion does not make Man wage war against Man. It is ultimately the men who are mis-interpreting the Word or a religion's doctrines or beliefs or the 'proclaimed Will of G-d' and envoking 'IT' as the 'call' to war or the motivation for death , etc.

Look, if I could realistically get enough people to back me in a belief or reason that we need to goto war with Russia, for example, and I am successful in doing so, I could also further this by claiming it in the name of G-d or for reasons based on my religious faith, doctrines, etc. to further this also. Could I not as easily claim all this in the name of G-d or religion or 'Our best interests', Food, Land, etc.?

I am saying that Religion is not the sole reason nor the 'greater cause' for war, death, killing, etc. One could just as easily have a war or mass killing, etc. called in the name of McDonald's verses in the name of G-d. But which has more 'pull', more sway, more emphasis, etc......of coarse religion or G-d. Irregardless....it is Man and Man alone who is ultimately responsable....it is the blood of those slain from killing, death, and war that is on the literal hands of men....not on G-ds hands.....not on the steps of the Church...............Man's. Man doesn't want to admit that he is a destructive being, bent on manipulating his own kind down to manipulating Holy Texts, religions, doctrines, etc. Its easy to carry the 'banner of Religion or G-d' and even easier to weild and smite foes with the weapon of mis-interpretation and misunderstanding. G-d may have created us but that doesn't mean that He is also responsible for Man's own doings, no matter the 'banner' or cause that Man so chooses to wield.


First off, when you mean 'creation' you are focusing or encompassing what? Creation can be defined a multitude of ways.

Creation is a everyday ongoing process. Whether it be the further creation of one's self, physically or spiritually, or through Man's further creating for a better cure, a better car, a better airplane, etc. Creation by Man, or through Man, is ever ongoing. It is a never ending cycle.....we create only to have our children further create and their children to further create. Same can be applied to our inner selves. We create a question, seek it out, gain the answer only to ask another question, to seek, and to answer to then again, ask another question, etc., etc. The cycle of creation never ends and in this way, is far from complete.

If I can further this discussion any, please feel free to inquire as you see fit..I have no problem's discussing this though I might get a bit tongued tied, I do hope all will bear with it.

Hell, while I'm cutting my throat, I might just as well take a leg too.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 22-6-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 22-6-2003 by Seekerof]

OK I am going to go out on a limb here and the reason I am doing this is only to present how its possible for God to be part of the conspiracy.

To anyone who is offended by what I am about to say I apologize that was not my intention. Which in reality is to present from the context of what is known, a matter
of concern.

Death is a part of Gods design that it was the result
of something man did does not change that.

War is something that resulted from death being possible without death war is irrelevant.

Seekerof having said this your request at not citing old testament examples is noted, my point does not require any further citations. But take into consideration that what is explained above is fundamental to our discussion.

Helen you are correct with respect to your interpretation.

Man did feel he could be as God and as a result God reacted by making death a part of mans existence. But if God created man as good, how does one conclude that Adam or Eve's intent in eating the forbidden fruit. As something outside a realm of meaning with respect
to what God created?

As you know my impression of all religious text is that with respect to the stories is that it is symbolic of mans effort to define his world.

From this context a conclusion could be drawn that again man blamed God for death and the cause of his problems.

Seekerof by creation I am referring to the effect of creation as in the Universe which does seem observable from two different points of view (as Hubbell seems to be making clear).

Helen I think your right promoting the idea that we are illusions is fundamentally evil.

What are your thoughts?

Did you happen to notice that in your original post, near the end, you changed the question?

You began by asking "is the idea of God", but you concluded with "is religion" and then more specifically CREED.

Hey Valhall you may have a point with respect to my psyche and even perhaps even an opinion

Maybe I should not have included that one but it did come from the heart and was not intended to sway.

Looking back by that time I think I was in a free association mode

I do really want to hear about how you feel?

I do not agree that "death is a part of God's design". And I believe to say "that it was a result of something man did does not change that"...is a cop out to our own (our being some numb-nut way before me) failure as a species.

The idea, or more accurately, the ideal of God is not part of the conspiracy. The bastardization, to politicizing, the power-mongerin by the CREEDs and RELIGIONs instituted are paramount to the conspiracy...(by the way, I'm not sure what conspiracy I'm talking about, but I'm damned sure they're part of it ).

Religion=creed as far as I'm concerned. Let's think of any given religion...it is a compendium of edicts for the purpose of the member showing, either to themselves, or more importantly to the body of the religion that they are, in fact, part of the body. "I have agreed to this creed."

If your Baptist that means you don't dance or drink. If your Jewish or Muslim you don't eat pork. If your Catholic...I'm not sure what you DON'T do...but you DO a lot. Constructed machinations created by somebody way back there who thought their s**t didn't stink and could set up the rules for everybody else.

Now, back to God. His intent was made clear (and this statement is based on a Judeo-Christian background and I don't give a flying leap if it offends anybody). His intent was to have a creation that was made in His image (i.e. free-moral agent, spirt, soul) who had the choice of loving Him, or not, and then deciding to love Him.

Did He have a grand plan that we would decide He wasn't enough...because that's basically the FUNDAMENTAL choice made...God wasn't enough. "Loving you is not enough to make me happy." period. NO...I don't think He did have that grand plan. Furthermore, I don't think He chose to "see" what the choice would be.

I give evidence of that statement by quoting a post I just made in another thread


"Nightwalker,

Why must there be a linear, singular outcome? What if, in God's omniscience, He is aware of every conceivable outcome...the matrix of outcomes.

Then would you say "because He knows what will happen,it is predetermined?" That wouldn't make much sense then, because HE knows every conceivable outcome.

I agree with Seekerof. God KNOWING is not God predestining. The path is not set for any given individual.

One more thing to consider:

"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:6 KJV

"And the Lord regretted that He had made man on earth, and His heart was saddened." Genesis 6:6 Torah (New JPS)

Here's my question to you: If you KNOW the outcome of an action prior to making it, and have the power not to make it, then how can you be regretful? How can you repent of an action for which you have predestined the outcome?

HINT: Answer is...YOU CAN'T.

So consider, just because God CAN know the outcome, doesn't mean He has chosen to see it. There are many outcomes...the path to the future truly is a matrix. I believe God knows the final outcome for each of those paths...He has left it to us to choose which outcome. "

There is a passage in the Bible (and, since I can't quote chapter and verse and don't feel like looking it up right now I'll paraphrase)...

In ancient times God made himself manifest to ALL men, but through the ages, and the adulteration of the truth by myths and legends, religions ran astray.

Valhall...quote// ancient times God made himself manifest to ALL men, but through the ages, and the adulteration of the truth by myths and legends, religions ran astray.


Yes but God did not manifest in His appearance as eg....man was made in the image of God.....as in person...flesh like......
He did not appear as Himself.......for no one could look at Him and live......God was all bright....

The appearance of God to Abraham in the form of Three Strangers.....Note....Genesis ,chap.18:1-16

As man went on....Man lost the goodness that he had and therefore his mind was led astray by sin and his ability to communicate with God was lost.....

No one wants to hear the truth ......though it may be true ......people want to create a safe haven for themselves.....build a place for their comfort and pleasing their own desires....not realy seeing what reality is like.....people want to believe that as long as they are comfortable in their surroundings,all is fine........But is it?
Is it the life that will last forever.......for eternity?
No........it is only a temporary existence.........and all of mankind is destined for it........destined to die .

Does The Idea Of God Play A Pivotable Role In The Conspiracy?

Answer: Yes



Is the idea of God something, which is to blame for all our problems?

Answer: No



Or is he something, which we should praise as the cure to what is wrong?

Answer: This depends on who you feel is God.



Are we created to guarantee each of us serve a system whose function is intent upon making sure we think God is real?

Answer: No. The system you are living under has nothing to do with God, but everything to do with God. Everything being the fact that all of you are always searching for answers.



Is the Holy Bible our master (or for that matter is the Tao te ching its equivalent) ?

Answer: No



Does the very fact we are alive act a proof that God is real, or is it evidence that life is part of a process of which God is a conclusion?

Answer: Proof of a higher-power surrounds you, always.



Has religion acted as an excuse for what is wrong?

Answer: You should know between right and wrong within your own self. The answers are there. Religion may play a roll in how some make their determination of what right and wrong is, but the truth lies within.

OK here is the point where I ask everyone to stop for a moment and take a deep breath.

Valhall you seem like a very intelligent person but caring about what other people think is part of being in a community (and this is a community).

The world is full of ideologies and each one of them professes love in one way or another.

Its apparent that the issue of which one professes more love, is something all of us have to come to terms with.

That death is real and for the sake of argument very painful is a part of life.

As a result to assume there is a God is a conclusion that presents the issue that he had something to do with that experience.

Helen mans flaw is the desire to take advantage of a situation, Bill Clinton earns at least a million a year because he took advantage of a situation. Despite that fact acting in this way is one thing which will really tick someone off when we speak of normal day to day life.

The corruption is apparent, those who make the rules break them and get away with it. As a result one is led to the conclusions when did this begin?

Originally posted by Toltec
...As a result one is led to the conclusions when did this begin?

Apparently, shortly after we arrived on the scene

p.s. What was this in reference to???

Originally posted by Toltec
...but caring about what other people think is part of being in a community (and this is a community).

Posted by Valhall

and this statement is based on a Judeo-Christian background and I don't give a flying leap if it offends anybody

Like I said I really do think your an inteligent person (The idea of mutual admiration societies makes me sick so I meant it), one of the reasons I started thead (meaining I am responsible) is to get away from any fantacies each an everyone of us have something of value to contribute.

I care very much about what each of us have to say

Your right, it began when the curtain opened but were we actually set up or did we set up ourselves?

To the Buddhist Death is a Hand of God, to the Christian it is a means of ultimate salvation (as long as you play by the rules) but take away death and guess what. War is not an issue and in fact, neither is much of what is defined under the context of evil.

Thanks for responding on that and justifying your comment. But you mistook my words. My words were that MY statements come from a Judeo-Christian background and I don't give a flying leap if that offends anyone else. In other words, heads up...I won't take flaming due to my beliefs. It was NOT meant as "I don't want to hear what you have to say if you don't believe like me." no no no no no

Just to clear something up (and the reason being, there are certain issues in life that I just can't stand to be misunderstood on...and spirituality just happens to be at the top of the list). When it comes to SPIRITUALITY I have committed a great deal of time to studying the various faiths of the world. I respect the faiths (plurality intended) of the world. I choose my words carefully right now because I am not wanting these words to be read as "I am a believer of all"...I mean that I understand the tenents of the major religions and accept the free-will commitments of each religion's followers. Heck, I accept the noncommitment of those who totally reject all. After committing a great deal of time to these studies (and all done with an open mind - first tenent being that all most likely have a kernel of truth) I concluded that my background (Judeo-Christian) is where I am committed and will remain.

I rarely speak against any one else's beliefs...but I will rail against their words if they post them as some type of creed, or with the flagrant arrogance that they happen to be a member of an exclusionary body of the only right people on earth. I have my opinions about the rightness, wrongness and who's in and who's out of beliefs...but if you watch my posts I will never state those opinions. And usually, when I make a statement concerning any of my spiritual beliefs I am careful to crouch that within either a question for consideration, or as "my opinion" or "my belief".

There's one other thing I am a bit less accommodating with - movements and denominations. Spin-offs if you will...I'll be glad to discuss this statement if you are interested, but for now I will leave it at that.

I hope I cleared my words up for you, because I wouldn't want you to consider me a close-minded person on this issue...I wouldn't want anybody to. I have just contributed on boards before where "christian-bashers" flamed every poster that even hinted at their beliefs. And I want to make sure that doesn't even get started with me here.

You asked:

"Your right, it began when the curtain opened but were we actually set up or did we set up ourselves?"

And I believe I answered this prior, but I will reiterate. I do not believe we were set up. I believe we set ourselves up...and that last statement, if you consider for a moment, is just almost a pun!

I enjoy visiting with you.

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Valhall]

Does not all this equate down to what I mentioned.....Man is ultimately responsible?


regards
seekerof

I would just like to point out by far I am no atheist. I didn't want anyone thinking I was agreeing on Toltec's God conspiracy design.

Whether or not the idea of God was created by man doesn't mean there is no God. You all have a maker, so deal with it.

You can only dream of being a God. Drop the ego, get a clue. This goes for anyone not believing in a higher-power. You simply didn't create yourselves.

Hello Valhall,


I am of American Indian and Japanese decent the particular Indian Tribe I belong was nearly wiped out of extinction when Christianity came to the New World (about 7 families left after they were done from a population in the millions).

Part of the reason for that to have occurred was the belief of my people that Jesus Christ arrived in the Western Hemisphere just after he rose went to
heaven.

The stories are actually much more complex than that but that's not related to the point I am making now.

Part of my upbringing was to know different religious belief systems from varied perspectives, I minored in religion while and college and I am well traveled (I spent about four years in Catholic schools).

Its possible your considering that I may hold some hostility towards the Judeo-Christian faith, for me its not really a matter of that but my impression is religious tolerance is relevant to our societies survival.


I have been here for about a year I can tell you this we do get into heated discussions I feel its important for us not to treat ones opinion as a means to express personal remarks (for example "I think he is stupid).

Its a borderline sort of thing but once considered as postable the author should start to consider seriously that perhaps they getting to upset.

This not so much so with the issue of links of references but rather with each other.



Getting back to out discussion I would say yes it does seem very much like a pun but one which to a person who is less prepared to be analytical would fail to contrive as a pun.

Brings up the question as to what really was the forbidden fruit?


I as well am enjoing the conversation Valhall

What are your thoughts?

Hmmm.
I don't think God is a conspiracy.

If God is all-knowing and omnipotent, he hasn't the need for conspiracies. It therefore follows that if he doesn't need conspiracies, he doesn't need to create them.

God doesn't need to question and doesn't need to answer.

Add to this the fact that God made us in his own image and you could theorise that we already have all of the answers already. After all, if God isn't a conspiracy or a conspiracy theorist doesn't it follow that neither is man?

If we have all of the answers we have no need of the questions. I believe that we have the answers but that we just haven't recognised them for what they are.

Answered questions means no conspiracy.