What do you know? Heb. Eli becomes Julius in Latin

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Sorry, was that you posting a link to where Eli translates or has been transliterated to Julius?

Rhetorical question.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Rhetorical what? Or was that you demonstrating you have no idea what the difference between translation and transliteration is whatsoever? Heb. Eli or for that matter Gr. Elias (Lit. Ἠλίας) can easily be translated into Lat. Julius.

==> And the pope said to Copernicus: "Show me proof from any of our books showing Sol is the centre of our solar system!"

Rhetorical question back to you: Why did it take the Romans about half a millennium to find Biblical evidence Copernicus was right?

Deny ignorance!

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Jesu' grandfather was named Julius (Heb. Eli) in Latin, and Jesu' father was the son of Julius Caesar, Caesarion, carrying the Hebrew incognito name Joseph as in Joseph "The Prince of Egypt"..... Get it? Jesus was Julius Caesar's true heir....

Jesus grandfather was Heli and his great, great, grandfather was Eli (according to Luke. In Matthew's geneaology, Jacob was the grandfather and Eleazar was his great, great, grandfather (The differences in the geneaologies is that Jacob, Joseph's father, died early and that Joseph became adopted into Heli's, Mary's biological father, family under the law of Levirate Marriage - Joseph & Mary were first cousins and were both from the lineage of King David).

Neither 'grandfather' fits with the chronology of Caesar's life.

Julius Caesar was ex-millitary and had spent most of his campaigns in Western Europe.

According to history, Caersar had four children. He was also an absolute dictator of the Roman Emperor. If he had had children to a Jewish mother, they would have been accorded full honours as child of the most powerful man in the world of his day.

For example, one of Caesars children became Roman Emperor, another became Pharaoh of Egypt. They all had title and power.

I don't think your theory stacks up as is, could you please find more evidence to support it?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Okay, gotcha. I thought you were actually serious about this... sorry for wasting your time and energy trying to have a real discussion. Won't make that mistake again!

My reply is a subtle codex reference: Long story made short: Revelation 12:14 in the Latin Vulgate.

«The great eagle is the imperial eagle, eh?»

The eagle (with a snake in its claws) is the sigil for the Jewish tribe of Dan. This existed well before the Roman Empire.

The inference that this was Rome, in the quoted verse, is very tenuous.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Eli or for that matter Gr. Elias (Lit. Ἠλίας) can easily be translated into Lat. Julius.

Since it can be easily done show me a text, any text, where this has occurred.

originally posted by: chr0naut
For example, one of Caesars children became Roman Emperor...

Who was that?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: chr0naut
For example, one of Caesars children became Roman Emperor...

Who was that?

Gaius Octavius, who was later renamed Emperor Augustus, the first 'official' Emperor of Rome (arguably Caesar was an emperor in all but title).

Gaius Octavius was Julius Caesar's nephew but was described as (adopted) son and heir in Caesar's will, read just after Caesars assasination in 44 BC.

He was one of the three (Marcus Lepidus, Mark Antony and Gaius Octavius) that formed the second triumverate that opposed Caesar's killers. After the triumverate broke down, Octavius became Augustus Caesar.

a reply to: chr0naut

The great eagle that Herod fitted to the Jerusalem temple was the roman one. It can be seen with various things in its beak or claws, among such, a serpent. As far as I know the connection made by Michael Baigent et al in the Holy Blood Holy Grail-- to the Tribe of Dan is spurious. Once Dan is likened to a serpent, another place he is likened with an eagle. Put together Baigant et al managed to draw their lines between Rome and Dan.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Supposedly, there was a statue of the imperial eagle with a serpent in its claws above the entrance of Herod's temple in Jerusalem.

a reply to: chr0naut

Heli eh? You are aware that E is written like H in Greek? The father of Joseph (Caesarion) the true father of Jesus (the one in Matthew was the younger Joseph Mary married when old Joseph was dead, he died while Jesus was a wee lad) was Gr. Ἠλὶ (lit. Eli) according to Luke 3. Translating Ἠλὶ into Heli is rather silly really, and was probably done so in modern bibles to differ between the different people called Eli.

Jesus was of royal decent and most of the women that followed him were aristocrats. The family of Jesus married into nobility with a straight decent from David in all cases (the two Josephs and Mother Mary, they were all Bar Davods).

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I don't see how?
The Letter J didn't even exist yet did it?

a reply to: JesusXst

J wasn't introduced into Latin until long after the time Julius Caesar died. In the time of Julius, his name would be written IVLIVS (all caps no J or U etc.) in Latin, this still doesn't matter since I and Y and J are all translated into Hebrew Jod (and both U, W and V and in some cases B and others-- would become Heb. letter Vav). When J, H and U and a few more were introduced into later Latin, they were introduced in order to render Biblical Hebrew and Greek better. Next time you pick up a tidbit, please follow up and learn that whether you'd write IVLIVS or Julius it will translate and transliterate similarly into Hebrew and other languages.

And like I have demonstrated J (or I) and U (or V) in front of a Jewish name places it in the third person and fixes it to the Future tense (as in the Heb. name Judah or Judas-- prefix JU- translates «He will--»). Therefore J (or I) and U (or V) were omitted when translating Julius (or rather IVLIVS) into Eli. What is left of Julius (or IVLIVS) when you strip away these fixes, is (JU-) LI (-US). Li became El li, shortened into Eli. In certain Latin languages there is also used a variant of Julius: Eulius. Stripping away the male -us suffix, you get Euli. Again, nearest neighbour in Hebrew would be Eli.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That's really interesting thanks for that

I enjoy learning this stuff it's intriguing.

a reply to: JesusXst

I edited the text of my last reply to include some more information and edit a few typos and syntactical errors etc.

originally posted by: chr0naut
Gaius Octavius, who was later renamed Emperor Augustus, the first 'official' Emperor of Rome (arguably Caesar was an emperor in all but title).

Gaius Octavius was Julius Caesar's nephew but was described as (adopted) son and heir in Caesar's will, read just after Caesars assasination in 44 BC.

That is who I thought you were referring to, technically he was his grand nephew. The controversy around the will was only settled when Octavian defeated his rivals.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: chr0naut

Heli eh? You are aware that E is written like H in Greek? The father of Joseph (Caesarion) the true father of Jesus (the one in Matthew was the younger Joseph Mary married when old Joseph was dead, he died while Jesus was a wee lad) was Gr. Ἠλὶ (lit. Eli) according to Luke 3. Translating Ἠλὶ into Heli is rather silly really, and was probably done so in modern bibles to differ between the different people called Eli.

Jesus was of royal decent and most of the women that followed him were aristocrats. The family of Jesus married into nobility with a straight decent from David in all cases (the two Josephs and Mother Mary, they were all Bar Davods).

Heli (Ἠλὶ) in Luke's gospel is punctuated with a (smooth) breath, shown by the little punctuation mark before the letter eta (H).

In Matthew 27:46 we see the uncaptalized eli (ἠλί) which, if it were a true transliteration of the name Eli, would have been capitalized (Hλί).

Eli, in Hebrew would be אלי and is pronounced ay-lee' phonetically. Heli is not mentioned in the Old Testament as far as I know. The phonetic pronunciation of Ἠλὶ would be hay-lee'. In both cases, they could be both translated as Eli but if one were to go from phonetics, the translation Heli makes sense as different from Eli.

a reply to: chr0naut

And this Heli, is that a typical Greek name which was usually written in Greek? Can you show me any ancient Hebrews named Heli where the name is written Heli in Hebrew? And as for your phonetics, you are aware that there were thousands of dialects in motion here, ey? Using modern Hebrew phonetics and phonology isn't really relevant. Modern Hebrew is a Phoenix, Hebrew was a dead language for more than 1000 years.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: JesusXst

I edited the text of my last reply to include some more information and edit a few typos and syntactical errors etc.

Thanks for that, i have one question for you now. You mentioned this '' I and Y and J are all translated into Hebrew Jod '', while, i've heard of Yod do you know what the difference between the two is? It's caught my curiosity.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: chr0naut

And this Heli, is that a typical Greek name which was usually written in Greek? Can you show me any ancient Hebrews named Heli where the name is written Heli in Hebrew? And as for your phonetics, you are aware that there were thousands of dialects in motion here, ey? Using modern Hebrew phonetics and phonology isn't really relevant. Modern Hebrew is a Phoenix, Hebrew was a dead language for more than 1000 years.

It was written in Koine Greek, with the 'soft breath' accent preceeding the name.

I have checked and the accent is in all of the following manuscripts:
- Nestle GNT 1904 (rendered as Ἡλεὶ)
- Westcott and Hort 1881 (rendered as Ἡλεὶ)
- Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants] (rendered as Ἡλεὶ)
- RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
- Greek Orthodox Church 1904
- Tischendorf 8th Edition (rendered as Ἡλεὶ)
- Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
- Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550

That doesn't mean it wasn't Eli, but lots of early versions do include the accent.

a reply to: chr0naut

The way I learned it was that if there was an apostrophe before the E or A it meant that the E or A should be voiced, without it it should be silent. Any way, these bird droppings are mostly added after the fact as a way for certain scribes and kings to have their last word.

Postscript: Heli shows the connection to Juli/Julius even better, since J and H is often used interchangably in Lating languages, as in Spanish Julio = "Holio" and Jesus = "Hesos". Either was using Verner's Law and common translations, Julius becomes Helios (Sol in Greek) or Eli for short without the masculine suffix -us.

a reply to: JesusXst

Jod and Yod is the same letter, only I use Norwegian transliteration (Jod) instead of English (Yod). I find Jod better than Yod, since Y is a vowel, whilst J is a consonant and Hebrew is an Abjad language (made up of syllables and consonants), where the vowels are all assumed.