Purgatory? Is there such a thing?

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne

djohnsto77
I don't believe that dead babies, for example, are doomed to hell because of the original sin.

Dang, two in one day! I agree with this statement as well.

Surprise fella's ... The Catholic Church DOES NOT teach that babies who
die go to Hell. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that they go to Limbo
either. READ the Catechism!

unbelievable.

FlyersFan:

I'm not Catholic, and so haven't read the Catechism, but I was pretty sure that the RCC taught unbaptized babies went to Limbo. If I am wrong, I would be happy to be corrected, however.

I'll put the Catechism on my (very long!) to-do reading list.

Originally posted by mscbkc070904
The Roman Catholic church denounced purgatory. Why? Why after so long thru hundreds of years they now denounce it? If there is no prugatory where does troubled souls go? Are they judged and sent upon what life they lived?

How is it proven there are souls lost? If they are why isnt this spoken in all books of religion and faith?

The real question you should be asking is:

"God, afterlife? Is there such things???"

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
the RCC taught unbaptized babies went to Limbo.

NOPE. That's a common misconception ... or in some cases a
common anti-Catholic lie (not your case).

Catholics absolutely DO NOT teach that unbaptized babies who
die, or babies who are aborted, go to purgatory or to limbo. The
official teaching is that we are to trust in God and that He will
put them where HE deems that they belong.

SOME of the biblical quotes that have been interpreted to point
to Purgatory -

Psalm 66:12 - Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through
fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse is the OT figurative example of what will happen with believers when we die. Here is an example

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Reading the psalm from the top, it is a praise of God. It talks about the trials the jews went through from Egypt and how the author will priase God. It is not about a place called purgatory.
I cant help but wonder if purgatory is something that is confused with Abrahams Bosom, aka Paradise, aka the place where Lazerus went until Jesus lead all up to the father.

Origen and St. Ambrose specifically mention these as purgatorial
passages -

Ecclesiastes 12:14 - For God will bring every deed into judgment, with
every secret thing, whether good or evil.

This is true. We often hear about the judgment of the damned. But Christ will judge us who believe.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
This is where our works will be tried by fire. When this is done, white robes are handed out. This is the final sactification (so to speak) spoken of when it says our works will be tried by fire.

Isiah 4:4 - When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the
daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its
midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (see also
Isah 1:25-26)

Isaiah 6:5-7 - And I said: Woe is Me! for I am lost; for I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for
my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. Then Flew one of
the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken
with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: 'Behold,
this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'

Micah 7:8-9 - Rejoice not over me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall rise;
when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. I will bear the
indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he
pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me
forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance (see also Lev 26:41, 43
Job 40:4-5 Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:2-4 - But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can
stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's
soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the
sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right
offerings to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be
pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

Again, this speaks of believers being purified by Christ. I cite the following scripture as example. We know it is Christs blood that washes us. We are indeed baptized by fire.

Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

2 Maccabees 12:39-42, 44-45 - Judas and his men went to take up bodies
of the fallen .. then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found
sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to
wear .. so they all ... turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which
had been committed might be wholly blotted out ... for if he were not
expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been
superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the
splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it
was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the
dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

If the Jews were wrong to pray for the dead, Christ would have
corrected this belief. He did not. See Matt 5:22, 25-26, 12:32;
Luke 12:58-59, 16:9, 19-31

Matthew 5:22 - But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his
brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be
liable to the council, and whoever says 'you fool! shall be liable to
the Hell of fire.'

Now we are talking about the judgment of the damned, or the second judgment as mentioned in Revelation. This talks of hellfire, or the lake of fire. Not purgatory.

Matthew 5:25-26 - Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you
are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge,
and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you
you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.'
(see also Luke 12:58-59)

This one is EXTREMELY POWERFUL .
The wages of sin is death. The second death. If you pay the last penny...

Matthew 12:32 - And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be
forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit wil not be forgiven,
either in this age or in the age to come. (there is a time after this that
you will be forgiven ... heaven and hell have no forgiveness, so there
must be another place that DOES have forgiveness after this one)

I can see how you could have jumped track here.
Forgiven in this age: Repent and receive Jesus.
Next age: The judgment. You will not be forgiven. You will not only die here, but you will die the second death. I know of no example where the bible shows that someone can be forgiven after they died in opposition to the Lord.

Zechariah 9:11 - As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant
with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.

This was done by Christ. I will not put your next verse in quotes because I want to bring others into light with it.


1 Peter 3:19-20 - He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who
formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah,
during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is 8 persons, were
saved through water." (see also 1 Peter 4:6)
(souls in heaven and hell have no need of being preached to, there
must be another place - purgatory)

Psa 68:18 You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the LORD God may dwell there.

Those people who were disobedient in the days of Noah refers to the line of seth until Abraham when the covenant was made. All men have sinned and fallen short. So nobody could goto heaven until Christ paid the price.
Until that time, the believers under the everalsting covenant of abraham had to wait in a place called abrahams bosom, or paradise, under the earth

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
Eph 4:9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Now when you consider that verse, look here as well.

Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

So Jesus when He died went to Abrahams bosom and preached there. Then He lead those people to heaven to be with God.
No purgatory for anyone ever in the bible.

Here is a goodie discussing the degrees of expiation of sin -
Luke 12:47-48. So ... where exactly will these sins be expiated?
In Hell? Nope. That's eternal punishment. In Heaven? Nope.
That's eternal reward. Must be someplace else.

Sins are either forgiven or they are not. There is no middle road.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here's a little bit of interesting thought - If God refuses to receive
prayer, praise, and worship from the unrepentant sinner (Ps 66:18;
Prov 1:28-30; Isa 1:15, 59:2; Jer6:20, Amos 5:21-24; Mic 3:4; Mal 1:10;
John 9:31; Heb 10:38) why would he permit the damned to undertake this
practice?

Exactly. He wont. If you are damned then you are damned.

'Under the Earth' could refer even the damned having to
acknowledge Jesus as Son of God, OR it could refer to purgatory.

Now you have presented the choice. We have already examined the verses above.

Most likely it is purgatory because people in Hell wouldn't be singing
God's praises saying 'To Him who sits upon the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.'

Abrahams bosom

Phil 2:10-11 - at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in Heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Even the good and the damned angels acknowledge. So the damned will also.

Rev 5:3, 13 - And on one in Heaven or on earth or under the earth was
able to open the scroll or to look into it .. And I heard every creature in
Heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein
saying, 'To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and
honor and glory and might forever and ever.'

Amen

***************************************

Then we have St. Paul praying for the dead. Onesiphorus appears to
be dead at the time of this letter to Timothy. (cross ref 2 Tim 4:19 and
2 Tim 1:18)

2 Tim 1:16-18 - May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus,
for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but he
arrived in Rome, he searched for me eagerly and found me - may the
Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well
know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

And then someone carried Pauls letter back.
But of O man was dead...Paul isnt praying for HIM anyway.
2Ti 4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.

That was very thoughtful of Paul. I need to be more like that.

Now if everyone following along will read for themselves... you have the hilites in this thread. Just open a bible and read the surrounding verses to get more context , and pray for guidence the whole way.