Purgatory? Is there such a thing?

Originally posted by southern_cross3
Well, you're certainly going to hell. Though hypocrites in the Christian religion are no reason for you to denounce it.

You cannot even follow your own book. It is not for you to judge. You have no clue whether or not I will go to hell. You are a fool.

I would like to add to this. You christians constantly insult me by telling me I will go to hell. Not once in my post earlier did I say anything that was not true...and you say I am going to hell. Do christians or do they not refuse to even consider accepting science? They do. They do not even consider it, you included. That is ignorance and the lack of common sense and logic screams out in your words. Just the fact that you challenge me for criticizing things that are true....things thast I did not make up shows your attitude. turning your head away from science because you know in your head what it will lead you too. I don't fear insults and stupidity in the remarks that I get from people like you. I embrace them It is truly funny to watch someone intentionally make themselves less intelligent so that they do not have to accept truth. I guess in your defense, ignorance is bliss.

[edit on 1/24/2005 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by southern_cross3
Well, you're certainly going to hell.

Let's not get started with this. It's things like these that make Christians so despicable. "Believe me or go to hell," sounds like a dumb reason to believe you, because if we don't, then guess what? There is no hell to us. So nyeh.

I agree Chrisitans should not judge others faith and weather or weather not they are going to go to heaven. The Bible is not the end all of everything but it is a rather good guide to how one should approach life. Telling a person "Your going to hell" only demeans people, and makes them hate you. instead you should explain WHY you belive they MIGHT not go to heaven

A lot of the problems with Christians and non-belivers is false interpetations and bad translations of the original. Some become so fanatical they cannot listen to any reason, while other see this fanatisum and don't want to be a part of it.

i recently have figured that purgatory is earth, and the ghosts are the inhabitants of it.

I think he has a pretty good idea that you are going to hell if you do not get your business straight with GOD. He is the one you have to answer to not us. Your statements earlier seemed very arrogant and self centered. I could not imagine being in your heart and feeling the emptiness inside that you must feel every day without Jesus in it. This subject was originally about purgatory, not your disbelief in GOD. Sounds like you got issues dude.

Sorry, the Church still believes in purgatory.

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Sorry, the Church still believes in purgatory.

No, the Catholic Chruch still belives it because they don't want to admit they have been wrong for so many centuries.

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Sorry, the Church still believes in purgatory.

Good so I know where my brother or sister is. I can go visit him/her when I die

LOL

The moment somebody tells somebody else "your going to hell" they immediately loose any shred of credibility, however minute, they may have previously had.

Jesus, no matter what you beleive Him to be, or whether or not you believe in His divinity, would be appalled at the judging and condemnation being committed by some people against others. Jesus, despite what you believed Him to be, was a man who taught acceptance and forgiveness.....something that some of you in your blind, narrow-minded ignorance, seem to easily forget.

The Man tried to bring light into the world. People, in His name, continue to draw the dark cloak of ingorance over it.............

[edit on 26-1-2005 by Pyros]

Jesus, no matter what you beleive Him to be, or whether or not you believe in His divinity, would be appalled at the judging and condemnation being committed by some people against others. Jesus, despite what you believed Him to be, was a man who taught acceptance and forgiveness.....something that some of you in your blind, narrow-minded ignorance, seem to easily forget

Jesus himself told all of his disciples to go out and teach and Baptize in the name of God. When we say anything about going to hell,,,,, the Bible itself, which is the word of God says that sinners will go to hell unless they repent and accept Jesus. True he said Let the one with no sin cast the first stone. I know I have sin,,,, we are letting the ones that think they are not sinning know that they in fact are.

Sorry to ressurect a dead topic but I heard my history teacher mention the Vatican denouncing purgatory. Yet whenever I mention any of this to my Catholic friends they don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm told thats were I'm going for not going to church.

So yeah I was wondering if anybody had a link or anything to the Vatican denouncing Purgatory.

Sometimes I think that we're in Purgatory right here, right now.

Sorry for the one-line post, but I have nothing to back it up with as it's just a feeling I get sometimes.

Originally posted by mscbkc070904
The Roman Catholic church denounced purgatory.

No it hasn't. It is still very much a belief and teaching of the church.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
i recently have figured that purgatory is earth,
and the ghosts are the inhabitants of it.

That's my belief also Ryan. GHOSTS are the souls
in 'purgatory'. Ghosts are very real and it makes
sense that they have to let go, or learn lessons,
or whatever, before moving on.

SOME of the biblical quotes that have been interpreted to point
to Purgatory -

Psalm 66:12 - Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through
fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

Origen and St. Ambrose specifically mention these as purgatorial
passages -

Ecclesiastes 12:14 - For God will bring every deed into judgment, with
every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Isiah 4:4 - When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the
daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its
midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (see also
Isah 1:25-26)

Isaiah 6:5-7 - And I said: Woe is Me! for I am lost; for I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for
my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. Then Flew one of
the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken
with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: 'Behold,
this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'

Micah 7:8-9 - Rejoice not over me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall rise;
when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. I will bear the
indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he
pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me
forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance (see also Lev 26:41, 43
Job 40:4-5 Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:2-4 - But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can
stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's
soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the
sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right
offerings to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be
pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

2 Maccabees 12:39-42, 44-45 - Judas and his men went to take up bodies
of the fallen .. then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found
sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to
wear .. so they all ... turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which
had been committed might be wholly blotted out ... for if he were not
expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been
superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the
splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it
was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the
dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

If the Jews were wrong to pray for the dead, Christ would have
corrected this belief. He did not. See Matt 5:22, 25-26, 12:32;
Luke 12:58-59, 16:9, 19-31

Matthew 5:22 - But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his
brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be
liable to the council, and whoever says 'you fool! shall be liable to
the Hell of fire.'

Matthew 5:25-26 - Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you
are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge,
and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you
you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.'
(see also Luke 12:58-59)

Matthew 12:32 - And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be
forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit wil not be forgiven,
either in this age or in the age to come. (there is a time after this that
you will be forgiven ... heaven and hell have no forgiveness, so there
must be another place that DOES have forgiveness after this one)

Zechariah 9:11 - As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant
with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.

1 Peter 3:19-20 - He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who
formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah,
during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is 8 persons, were
saved through water." (see also 1 Peter 4:6)
(souls in heaven and hell have no need of being preached to, there
must be another place - purgatory)

Purgatory is not Sheol. In Sheol both the righteous and unrighteous go.
Sheol is referred to throughout the OT - Deut 32:22; 2 Sam 22:6; Ps 16:10
18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8, Prov 9:18, 23:14; Isa 5:14, 14:9, 15;
Ezek 31:16-17, 32:21, 27 and Enoch 22:1-14. The two are very
different places.

1 Cor 3:11-15 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which
is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation
with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, each man's work
will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has
done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives,
he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer
loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Here is a goodie discussing the degrees of expiation of sin -
Luke 12:47-48. So ... where exactly will these sins be expiated?
In Hell? Nope. That's eternal punishment. In Heaven? Nope.
That's eternal reward. Must be someplace else.

... and that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready
or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who
did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light
beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required;
and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

[edit on 7/25/2005 by FlyersFan]

Here's a little bit of interesting thought - If God refuses to receive
prayer, praise, and worship from the unrepentant sinner (Ps 66:18;
Prov 1:28-30; Isa 1:15, 59:2; Jer6:20, Amos 5:21-24; Mic 3:4; Mal 1:10;
John 9:31; Heb 10:38) why would he permit the damned to undertake this
practice? 'Under the Earth' could refer even the damned having to
acknowledge Jesus as Son of God, OR it could refer to purgatory.
Most likely it is purgatory because people in Hell wouldn't be singing
God's praises saying 'To Him who sits upon the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.'

Phil 2:10-11 - at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in Heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:3, 13 - And on one in Heaven or on earth or under the earth was
able to open the scroll or to look into it .. And I heard every creature in
Heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein
saying, 'To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and
honor and glory and might forever and ever.'

***************************************

Then we have St. Paul praying for the dead. Onesiphorus appears to
be dead at the time of this letter to Timothy. (cross ref 2 Tim 4:19 and
2 Tim 1:18)

2 Tim 1:16-18 - May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus,
for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but he
arrived in Rome, he searched for me eagerly and found me - may the
Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well
know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.





[edit on 7/25/2005 by FlyersFan]

Can anyone recall anywhere in the bible the word or defintion of purgatory being mentioned?

Purgatory was a concept designed by a 13th Century Italian friar, Dante Alighieri.

Followers of Hinduism and Lord Krishna have a belief similar to the Christian belief of purgatory.

Originally posted by Frosty
Can anyone recall anywhere in the bible the word or defintion of purgatory being mentioned?

Purgatory was a concept designed by a 13th Century Italian friar, Dante Alighieri.

Followers of Hinduism and Lord Krishna have a belief similar to the Christian belief of purgatory.

As you can see from the scripture presented above... it is not in the bible.

Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by Frosty
Can anyone recall anywhere in the bible the word
or defintion of purgatory being mentioned?

As you can see from the scripture presented above... it is not in the bible.

As you can see from the scripture presented above ... the WORD
purgatory isn't in the bible, but a place of purgation IS definately
discussed in the bible, at times by Christ Himself.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
As far as I know there is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea of a purgatory. It was mainly used by the Catholic Church to extort money from people by saying their loved ones were in purgatory but it they donated to the church, they'd go the heaven.

I can't believe it, me and djohnsto77 agree on something to do with religion! Miracles truly do exist in this day and age!

bible.gospelcom.net...

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I've read the bible and I've seen nothing that supports the idea of purgatory anywhere in it. As far as I know, it is (was???) a strictly Catholic doctrine.

djohnsto77
I don't believe that dead babies, for example, are doomed to hell because of the original sin.

Dang, two in one day! I agree with this statement as well. I don't see how a baby can sin; they don't have any idea what they are doing. They are incapable of it; they do not have the intellectual capacity to differentiate right from wrong, or even to commit wrongs if they somehow knew what things were sins or not.

marg6043
I love Dante concept of hell and purgatory he does an excellent mockery of it.

Yeah, like how Virgil has to spend eternity in limbo just because he lived before Christ came, regardless of whether Virgil was righteous or evil. That just doesn't seem very fair to me, and I can't see any just God barring someone from heaven just because the dates on their tombstone were earlier than Christ's.

Also, in response to Croat56, as far as I am aware, the Catholic church has not changed its stance on purgatory, and I can't see it doing so anytime soon. For those who say that it has been changed, I'd love to see a link on that.